The "Sonic The Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles" Quest for Music Composer Research

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by T.Q., Nov 18, 2019.

  1. Linkabel

    Linkabel

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    Doesn't this theory fall apart because some of the Sonic 1 and 2 music are actually Dreams Come True songs that existed before the games and were performed?
     
  2. TheOneAndOnlyJoebro64

    TheOneAndOnlyJoebro64

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    Besides the Sonic 2 credits theme.

    Aside from the Sonic 2 credits theme, only Green Hill and Star Light are believed to have used elements from Dreams Come True songs, and even then it's sort of debatable. "Marry Me?" has similarities to Green Hill's music (it sorta sounds like Green Hill played slowly) and Star Light kind of sounds like "Million Kisses", but other than that nothing really.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 19, 2020
  3. Gryson

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    It's speculation, but this situation is also possible:

    Sega licensed the music in question for the games in question on the specified platform without, presumably, any time limitations. Sega understood this to mean that they could re-release the games in the future and not have to re-license the music. So all of the Sonic games have been re-released on different platforms over the years (Saturn, Steam, etc.) with music intact.

    However, with the latest release of Sonic 3 on Steam in 2012 or so, it is possible that the composer in question thought that this represented a NEW platform rather than the platform that the license was originally signed for (the Genesis). In other words, even though the game itself is identical, because it isn't being operated on the Genesis console, this could be interpreted as violation of the original license.
     
  4. RepRevo

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    So... wouldn't the "breach of contract" be on the composers for not understanding it?
     
  5. Laura

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    My theory, and this is complete speculation, is that the legal troubles are much more recent then we think. I'm guessing it kicked off around 2010, when Sonic 3 stopped being re released.

    People like to point to an earlier time because of Sonic and Knuckles PC Collection, but theres clear problems. 1. Sonic Jam ported Sonic 3 with the original soundtrack no problem. 2. SPA used the Knuckles' S3 theme in a new soundfont.

    I think the most logical explanation for SAK PC Collection is that the S3 game was based on a different build than the final release (similar to the FF7 PC release). This would explain why its Sonic 3 uses the unused proto Knuckles theme rather than SK one and why it includes the scrapped 'super' theme.

    If this isn't the case, then perhaps SEGA couldn't get permission for the soundtrack in MIDI format or simply didn't want to pay for it.

    However, neither explanation has no bearing on SEGA's ability and desire to re release the game, which it did consistently until 2010.

    The problems with Sonic 3 are probably more recent than we assume.
     
  6. Gryson

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    I'm saying the contract probably didn't mention re-releasing the ROM on different platforms via emulation. It's open to interpretation whether that is covered under the original license or not. For example, if Sega were to re-release Sonic 3 on the Switch as a ROM running on a Genesis emulator, does that constitute Sega using the music beyond what the original license allowed? One of the original composers may have decided that Sega was making use of the licensed music beyond what was originally agreed and risked a lawsuit.

    There could be several factors at play with the PC Collection, one of which is that the original licensing deal was only for the Genesis platform and Sega didn't want to bother with re-licensing the music for the PC version. I don't think it's surprising that the platform is specified in the licensing contract. As I speculated above, Sega may have felt that the Sonic Jam version was still covered under the license since it's technically running on the Genesis platform (emulated).
     
  7. Dark Sonic

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    Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the Sonic Jam games all ports?
     
  8. Blastfrog

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    They were ports. All of the game's audio was played back as PCM recordings and not emulated.
     
  9. Gryson

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    Oh, that's right - I think the games are technically ports.
     
  10. SystemsReady

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    Don't forget, Sonic Mega Collection had the games intact too - and that compilation got a re-release (as Sonic Mega Collection Plus on the PS2). They certainly had no problems re-releasing it in the early to mid 2000s.
     
  11. TeamAfrican

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    But what about the Genesis Mini that came out not too long ago? Wouldn’t it be ok to release on that since it would have been unmodified?
     
  12. RepRevo

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    I still think that Brad Buxer et all should have acknowledged Sonic Jam in some way.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2020
  13. Sir_mihael

    Sir_mihael

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    I do feel like there may have been certain events in the real world that suddenly made SEGA realise that Sonic 3 was a dangerous hot potato to be throwing around.
    Whether it was a shake-up caused by MJ's death, or possibly Brad Buxer becoming aware of Sonic 3 and it's continuous re-releases (after fans discovered the Hard Times connection, surely he must have caught wind of this which may have renewed his interest in that situation), since for all we know, the musicians assumed it was a one-off job and never paid the game any attention after their work was done.

    Either way, yes. For a while Sega thought it was okay to keep re-releasing Sonic 3 so long as the music was still the same unaltered MD tracks (so Sonic Jam and the DS collection were fine), but something happened and now they won't even risk that much - to the point where even Sonic Generations used new arrangements of Sonic 3 music in the sound test. It's all a bit odd.
     
  14. Afro Thunder

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    Before AtGames got kicked off the project, they went on record saying Sonic 3 was untouchable due to licensing issues with the music, and it stayed that way when M2 came on board, so the music is unquestionably the sticking point, regardless of what kind of port it is.
     
  15. Laura

    Laura

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    That's interesting, can you provide a source?
     
  16. He definitely does. The description on the official youtube video of Hard Times reads:

     
  17. TheOneAndOnlyJoebro64

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    Oh shit.
     
  18. Sir_mihael

    Sir_mihael

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    That's actually kinda hilarious. It would make sense that we haven't had a Sonic 3 release since 2011, and the Hard Times connection was made in 2013, and we haven't had a Sonic 3 release since.
    Did Brad give SEGA a big "Buxx You?"
    (that sounded better in my head)
     
  19. Afro Thunder

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    Here ya go, via Polygon, though AtGames' original facebook post seems to have evaporated without a trace, even with the Wayback Machine.
     
  20. KMetalmind

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    Many game contracts of that time separated PCs from consoles, so S3&K not having licensed music actually make sense. Another fact is that Sega only released S3&K and CD on PC, but not 1 or 2, which had Dreams Come True licensed music too.

    Anyway, it's either MJ dying and having to deal with the heirs or Brad Buxed and/or other musician acknowledging their work was being reused. What's interesting is the reason why beta/PC music isn't used instead. Is it for the fan backlash? Is it that Sega would prove that they knew they couldn't use the music and they did it previously? Or is there any other trouble?