The "Sonic The Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles" Quest for Music Composer Research

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by T.Q., Nov 18, 2019.

  1. Considering we are trying to attribute credits to short songs involved in lawsuits that happened more than 20 years ago, with SEGA concealing composer information from this period all the time, I find impossible to get facts out of these without bothering the original composers, which isn't an option.
     
  2. At the same time, there's a difference between "highly likely" and "confirmed." It's foolhardy at best to try to pass the former off as the latter.
     
  3. kazblox

    kazblox

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    It's always foolish to treat assumptions as facts before you confirm them. Everyone naturally (i.e. unconsciously) does that. Even I do. We have to learn to avoid doing so.
     
  4. TheOneAndOnlyJoebro64

    TheOneAndOnlyJoebro64

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    I was just playing Sonic Megamix 5.0a and I encountered a glitch that caused the drums in the music to stop playing. It made me realize that some of the Act 2 Sonic 3 tracks just remove certain instruments (like drums) to make it sound like they're different... and sure enough, those are the ones we think MJ had involvement in. Maybe MJ's involvement was smaller and later than we thought - I'm sure if he was involved from the beginning, he (or his team) would've composed unique Act 2 music.
     
  5. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    We already know from that interview that it wasn't MJ who worked on Sonic 3, that knowledge needs to be spread.
     
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  6. rata

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    Your mistake is to think that people read the entire thread.
     
  7. Afro Thunder

    Afro Thunder

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    Again, take whatever Buxer said with a grain of salt. MJ was hands on with the creations of the cues, even if he wasn't the one who produced them. Anything Brad or the others made were based around reference demos MJ himself made, which is how he was known how to make his songs.
     
  8. The Other RaFaél

    The Other RaFaél

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    Yeah, didn't Cirocco pretty much say the opposite? Perhaps Michael did contribute significantly to the working soundtrack, just not in collaboration with Buxer. Like even though Buxer, Cirocco and co. were brought onto the project by Michael (...right?) , perhaps he worked with some of them for the project, significantly more than others.

    EDIT: Trying to make my sentences make sense. Bear with me folks, it's been a loong night.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2019
  9. Sanqui

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    By the way, are we all forgetting Sonic Pocket Adventure exists? Despite being largely a rehash of Sonic 2, it uses Sonic 3 & Knuckles music, presumably to avoid having to pay royalties to Dreams Come True... And although it largely avoids using the MJ songs, it does use Knuckles' Sonic 3 theme!
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2019
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  10. James Smith

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    Yeah that is really odd how Pocket Adventure has Knuckles's S3 Theme. I have no idea why that's the case.
     
  11. muteKi

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    Too basic to copyright?
     
  12. SystemsReady

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    hmmm now that I think about it, if it was using a preset loop, they really couldn't copyright it at all. This is why Mystic Ruins Past isn't on the SA soundtrack release - it's literally a preset loop playing by itself (which is used in present-day Mystic Ruins in a sufficiently transformative fashion, and thus the track could be sold).
     
  13. Even if it isn't, the final rendition on the NGPC is just a set of notes on the noise channel. It doesn't even have a melody. You can't claim copyright royalties on something like this.

    When something is different enough from the original, even if it was clearly based on it, it's legally considered a new thing.
     
  14. Afro Thunder

    Afro Thunder

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    Yeah, they were. Also, Cirocco and Matt Forager (one of MJ's longtime studio engineers) both said that MJ would create the references via beatboxing and singing, and the team would create the full tracks based around them, with MJ still assisting or giving input. Not to say anything bad about Brad Buxer, but how he described MJ during the process is the complete opposite of what we've been told before, especially by him.
     
  15. The Other RaFaél

    The Other RaFaél

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    Correct. One of my musical idols, Teddy Riley, has described a similar process, from when he worked with Michael on the Dangerous album. Judging from some demos I heard on YT and things I've read over the years, it would seem this has been Michael's approach to composing/producing as far back as or even further back than Thriller.

    So much this. Others always described Michael as having been remarkably hands-on in the production of his music, especially for not having really played any instruments (aside from vocals to be more precise) on any of it. The process Buxer described seems downright out of character for Michael. Unless Michael was suffering from a depression in the worst way, I just can't say I buy it.
     
  16. Afro Thunder

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    I'm a big Teddy Riley guy too, and I've heard him and countless others talk about MJ's creative process, so I can't take what Brad said about MJ's involvement at face value. Now, if Brad is talking solely about his cue for Ice Cap, then yes, I'd believe it, but for the rest? Doubtful, unless MJ was truly in a pitiful funk, in which case, he'd have probably bowed out sooner.
     
  17. Shakidna

    Shakidna

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    We know from the existence of Hard Times that not every MJ sound team track necessarily had input from Michael. Any of the other 40 cues could have been original compositions from MJ collaborators.
     
  18. Afro Thunder

    Afro Thunder

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    I'm aware, but that was an already existing composition Buxer reworked, similar to how "Jam" was fitted into Carnival Night. I know some of the other guys definitely brought their own ideas to the table, but I'm saying MJ likely had input on most of them, even if they weren't cues he started himself, it's just how he works.

    But I digress, since the only people who really know are the guys who did the cues, and out of all of them, Brad Buxer is the only one who's been willing to freely talk about it.
     
  19. TheOneAndOnlyJoebro64

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    Guys, I think I've figured out what might be holding up Sonic 3 rereleases. We know it's licensing issues, but this could possibly shed more light on the story.

    As we've always known, Sega doesn't own the rights to Masato Nakamura's original music for Sonic 1 and 2. However, what they do own is the performance rights. Since Nakamura's music was never "performed" until it was converted to work on the Genesis hardware, Sega's free to rerelease Sonic 1 and 2 without needing to pay him royalties. They only need to do so when they're remixing the music for another game, as was the case with Sonic Spinball.

    With the music in Sonic 3, it seems Sega assumed this would be the case once again. The composers (MJ, Buxer, Jones, Brooks, etc.) would write the music, Sega would convert it to the Genesis, and then they'd only need the composers' permission if they were to remix the tracks for a new game. However, there are problems here that Sega obviously wasn't aware of until recently. For one thing, we know the IceCap music is just an instrumental FM version of "Hard Times" by the Jetzons. Then there are the "Jam" samples in Carnival Night's music. There might be more, but those are the two obvious ones.

    So to me, the rereleases seem to have stalled when (A) Sega started getting legal threats from Brooks and the others and (B) people discovered IceCap is just "Hard Times". I think they got scared by the potential financial ramifications a lawsuit could have on them (if a lawsuit does happen, it could cost Sega millions even if they don't have to give a cent to the musicians). It explains why Sega's still handing out Sonic 1 and 2 rereleases like candy on Halloween while holding back Sonic 3 like it's a secret no one's supposed to know about.
     
  20. Turbohog

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    Nah.