The "Sonic The Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles" Quest for Music Composer Research

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by T.Q., Nov 18, 2019.

  1. T.Q.

    T.Q.

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    LAST EDITED: 2019-NOV-26 00:25 EST
    ---> MUSIC DIRECTORY LIST <---


    UN-OFFICIAL LOGO FOR THE THREAD. Yes...very creative. Just click the link above to access the Wiki article and discover who may be the composers for musical cues used in the game.



    ORIGINAL TEXT
    It's an intriguing topic to find out who the composers are, given the web of different composers who may have contributed directly/indirectly to the creation of Sonic 3 & Knuckles' sound. I have started a list to see who may be the composer(s) of each musical piece. Perhaps it could be built upon here (and I can edit this). Then maybe it can be transfer to a Wikipedia article, or something (I'm not familiar with starting Wiki articles, nor have an account anymore with it).

    EDIT 1: The plan is to name the specific composers of each music. Not necessarily the arrangers or group, but rather the individual people involved with the composition of the music. The group can be listed in the reference/notes area, though.

    EDIT 2: This table of information is planned to be transcribed to this Wiki page on Sonic Retro (Courtesy of Black Squirrel and Qjimbo): CLICK HERE. The text below may continue to be edited in this post while I figure out how to recover my username from the Wiki (I believe I have a username, but the email address to recover the password isn't working. I forgot the password, and the email I inputted was likely incorrect).

    EDIT 3: Okay, I created a new user name for the Wiki. I'll be slowly editing the main music development page with updated table formats and then transcribing stuff from this post to that page.

    EDIT 4: Lousy MediaWiki. I prepared overhauled tables, and it's complaining about data being submitted too often, and some other Forbidden message about my edit being spam. Oh well, I'll wait for at least 18 hours, maybe it will change its mind.

    EDIT 5: Thanks for some help, the tables have been implemented in the MediaWiki. I'm going to be crossing out parts of the music directory below because they will have already been transcribed on the wiki page. Eventually, I created an icon, where if clicked, will lead you to the relevent page to view its list.

    EDIT 6: Done, the list is now on the MediaWiki with the link below. Venture there and help out with researching and adding to the tables.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
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  2. Hidrocity is SEGA Sound Team's. It was listed as that in Generations and Mania.
     
  3. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    I think it would come in handy to list the the track number in hex from the proto and final for each song.

    Edit:
    Also, shouldn't this:
    ...be "Mid-Boss Theme (Proto/Sonic & Knuckles/PC)"?
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  4. McAleeCh

    McAleeCh

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    I seem to recall it being mentioned that there was someone whose job it was to create Act 2 arrangements once the main stage track had been picked - has my sleep-deprived brain made this up, or if not can anyone remember the source of this info? Just thought I'd mention it, as if I am remembering correctly it'd change the structure of the list somewhat!
     
  5. OrtengeSoda

    OrtengeSoda

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    Off topic but if you search Brad Buxer on Wikipedia an image of the Angry Video Game Nerd appears, kind of funny.
     
  6. Blue Blood

    Blue Blood

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    I'm curious; why is the Act Clear theme being attributed to Jacques and 3D Blast? Sonic 3 predates it.
     
  7. Chibisteven

    Chibisteven

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    The original poster seems unaware that the act clear jingle is a Jun Senoue composition or that the Chaos Emerald and Drowning Jingles are written by Yukifumi Makino. Also the Game Over jingle is written by Jun Senoue as well.
     
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  8. Kat

    Kat

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    Marble Garden Zone and maybe one bonus stage song were composed by Miyoko Takaoka (she seems unsure if her bonus stage composition was actually used or not).
     
  9. DreamsComeBlue

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    Honestly, at this point I'd be shocked if it turned out that Gumball Machine Bonus Stage wasn't by Jun Senoue. The Slot Machine music also wouldn't have sounded terribly out of place in Sonic 3D Blast.
     
  10. Nova

    Nova

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    Wasn't it already confirmed elsewhere (I'm forgetting exactly where) that the gumball stage was definitely Senoue?
     
  11. Ch1pper

    Ch1pper

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    I remember Howard Drossin saying that someone would come up with a song for Act 1, then Masaru Setsumaru would make an arrangement of it for Act 2.
    https://info.sonicretro.org/Howard_Drossin_interview_by_SageXPO_(August_2008)
    https://segaretro.org/Interview:_Howard_Drossin_(2009-09-22)_by_Gamasutra?
     
  12. BlackFive

    BlackFive

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    I'd remove the bit about Angel Island being a Senoue composition. The album linked contains the Brawl remix of the track, and only credits Senoue for arrangement and guitars/programming. Composition is merely credited to Sega as ever.

    I seem to remember that a lot of what we know re:who composed what for Sonic 3 came from email conversations with composers/arrangers or those who would've been in the know. Because evidence of these conversations weren't all posted to the same place, I wouldn't know where to look for most of them, but I seem to remember the following things being more or less confirmed:

    • The Sonic 3 title theme, along with a couple of jingles, were Sawada's only contributions to Sonic 3&K. He specifically denied composing AIZ and SSZ, which fans were attributing to him due to the credits on the 10th anniversary CD. He also confirmed that Crystal Egg Zone was his only contribution to 8-bit Sonic 2.
    • In a conversation/interview circa 2000, Jun Senoue confirmed that he composed the bonus stages and assorted jingles, but nothing else. Around 2011, he stated that he wasn't allowed to disclose any information regarding S3's music credits, but said that his "favourite" track in the game was the magnetic orbs bonus stage.
    • A few sites claim that Masayuki Nagao did the act 2 arrangements for Hydrocity and Lava Reef. I seem to remember talk of a conversation with Nagao confirming that he didn't compose any music for the game, only arranged/programmed it.
    • Yoshiaki Kashima stated somewhere that the Special Stage theme was his only contribution to the game.
    • Uwabo was merely a coordinator and didn't compose anything
    If any of these conversations haven't been lost to time (assuming I didn't just imagine them), either screenshots or direct quotes + context would be a great thing to have, just to make sure that the information we're working from is definitely correct.
     
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  13. PhotonSeek

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    Yeah, I was the one who contacted him about it back in 2015. It was actually Under Ground Zone from 8-bit Sonic 2 he denied composing (as I had left a stupid comment on one of his tracks like "I can't believe this is the same guy who made Under Ground Zone from Sonic 2!", which I deleted later), but he would've denied doing Angel Island Zone too if I had brought it up. Screenshot: https://imgur.com/o7TQff6 He seems like a nice guy. Might ask him about Sonic Gems Collection and if he done any of the Sonic 3 prototype tracks.

    Some of the other conversations can be found in this thread.
     
  14. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    Yes. This is what I found in Sonic 3D Blast:
    Code (Text):
    1. 01  Green Grove Zone Act 1
    2.     Song by J.Seno. ? Arrange by J.Seno.
    3.  
    4. 02  Green Grove Zone Act 2
    5.     Song by J.Seno. ? Arrange by J.Seno.
    6.  
    7. 03  Rusty Ruin Zone Act 1
    8.     Song by T.Maeda ? Arrange by T.Maeda
    9.  
    10. 04  Rusty Ruin Zone Act 2
    11.     Song by T.Maeda ? Arrange by T.Maeda
    12.  
    13. 05  Volcano Valley Zone Act 2
    14.     Song by T.Maeda ? Arrange by T.Maeda
    15.  
    16. 06  Volcano Valley Zone Act 1
    17.     Song by T.Maeda ? Arrange by T.Maeda
    18.  
    19. 07  Spring Stadium Zone Act 1
    20.     Song by J.Seno. ? Arrange by J.Seno.
    21.  
    22. 08  Spring Stadium Zone Act 2
    23.     Song by J.Seno. ? Arrange by J.Seno.
    24.  
    25. 09  Diamond Dust Zone Act 1
    26.     Song by T.Maeda ? Arrange by T.Maeda
    27.  
    28. 0A  Diamond Dust Zone Act 2
    29.     Song by T.Maeda ? Arrange by T.Maeda
    30.  
    31. 0B  Gene Gadget Zone Act 1
    32.     Song by T.Maeda ? Arrange by T.Maeda
    33.  
    34. 0C  Gene Gadget Zone Act 2
    35.     Song by T.Maeda ? Arrange by T.Maeda
    36.  
    37. 0D  Panic Puppet Zone Act 2
    38.     Song by T.Maeda ? Arrange by T.Maeda
    39.  
    40. 0E  The Final Fight
    41.     Song by M.Sets. ? Arrange by M.Sets.
    42.  
    43. ??  Sonic 3 Bonus Stage
    44.     Song by J.Seno. ? Arrange by J.Seno.
    45.  
    46. 10  Special Stage
    47.     Song by J.Seno. ? Arrange by J.Seno.
    48.  
    49. 11  Intro/Panic Puppet Zone Act 1
    50.     Song by J.Seno. ? Arrange by J.Seno.
    51.  
    52. 12  Boss 2
    53.     Song by J.Seno. ? Arrange by M.Sets.
    54.  
    55. 13  Boss 1
    56.     Song by T.Maeda ? Arrange by T.Maeda
    57.  
    58. 14  Intro
    59.     Song by J.Seno. ? Arrange by J.Seno.
    60.  
    61. 15  Credits
    62.     Song by S.Okamoto ? ?Arrange by J.Seno.
    63.  
    64. 16  Game Over
    65. 17  Congratulations
    66. 18  Level Clear
    67.     Song by J.Seno. ? Arrange by J.Seno.
    68.  
    69. 19  1-UP
    70.     Song by H.Drossin. ? Arrange by M.Sets.
    71.  
    72. 1A  Chaos Emerald
    73.     Song by Y.Makino ? Arrange by Y.Makino
    74.  
    75. 1B  Invincibility
    76.     Song by J.Seno. ? Arrange by J.Seno.
    77.  
    78. 1C  Menu
    79.     Song by J.Seno. ? Arrange by J.Seno.
    80.  
    81. 0F  Ending
    82.     Song by J.Seno. ? Arrange by M.Sets.
     
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  15. muteKi

    muteKi

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    My guess is that for the stuff that was being contracted out this is true, but might not be for stuff composed by members of Sega. Songs that we can identify as almost certainly coming from outside composers are probably the ones whose arrangements differ the least -- obviously all the MJ-associated tracks (ICZ, CNZ, LBZ) have the least variation between their two act forms, with the second one not changing mood or structure except to have various parts of the song come in and out. Then there's also Death Egg, Sandopolis, Marble Garden (definitely contracted out), and Mushroom Hill (and, I suppose, Ice Cap Zone from the proto) -- these all retain key, tempo, and melodic structure across the two versions in a way that the other songs don't. (Death Egg is an interesting one in particular to me because it's so obviously derived from Metropolis's music; I've felt similarly that Mushroom Hill derives from Emerald Hill's music too, but it's a bit subtler due to the extreme jazz reharmonization.)

    I'm hesitant to draw TOO strong a conclusion here since, at least without the prototype soundtrack to point to conclusively, 7 stages' songs is more the rule than the exception here. I really need to double-check what Setsumaru did for Sonic 3D Blast, since that shares his involvement -- and the more conservative style of remix.

    Yeah I think the answer here comes from the http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_10th_Anniversary which I mentioned in the discord the other day.

    We apparently have confirmation that Sawada did the Sonic 3 theme (and nothing else). Unless Drossin did AIZ and SSZ (which seems increasingly likely is not the case, i.e., that he only did the S&K replacement tracks), that would suggest the reason that Kashima is the one who composed the other tracks, but even that seems to be stymied based on this:

    So I'm not even sure the people who made the music know who did what any more.

    However, if Sawada was responsible for Crystal Egg (I seem to recall seeing this previously credited to Ogata?) that would probably mean he was also the one who did the nearly-identical Ice Cap Zone music.

    That said, I'm more willing to believe based on direct questioning from Sawada and Drossin on authorship vs. what Kashima said, well, somewhere, so I would suspect that the other tracks could well be Kashima's work if he was credited on that album. So confusing! Maybe someone can ask Sawada about the prototype/PC Ice Cap music?
     
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  16. PhotonSeek

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    A lot of the crediting for 8-bit Sonic 2's music was just speculation being treated as fact. Except from Crystal Egg and Green Hills, there's no full composer breakdown.

    Also I might ask him about Sonic 3 Prototype's music later on tonight.
     
  17. Strife

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    This is just a gut feeling, but the twangy bass tracks in Carnival Night 2 and Desert Palace are so similar that I'm convinced they were composed by the same person. If what Ch1pper said about Masaru Setsumaru composing the Act 2 themes is accurate, then perhaps he had a hand in one or more of the competition tracks as well, or whoever did DP had done some of the prototype tracks as well before they were replaced.
     
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  18. muteKi

    muteKi

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    I think we can confidently put Green Hills to Ogata and, heck, I will eat my hat if Hataya didn't compose Sky High, though I'm equally at a loss for who to put as the composers for the other tracks.

    I would presume Ogata is the composer of Underground Zone, given it shares similarities to Sonic You Can Do Anything and, interesting, Carnival Night Proto.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  19. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    From the post right above yours:

     
  20. muteKi

    muteKi

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    Must have missed that when I posting. Just so I'm clear, Congratulations (#16) is the continue screen's music, right?

    Go figure that Setsumaru wasn't involved in any of the act 2 arrangements. Shame this game doesn't have these kinds of credits in any of the binaries.