Bashing Sonic 3 & Knuckles OTHER THAN THE BARREL

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Sid Starkiller, Jul 21, 2020.

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  1. SystemsReady

    SystemsReady

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    sure, check last year's Sonic 3 prototype dump
     
  2. ChaddyFantome

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    That's amazing! Thanks!

    Sure, but Sonic is the main character. Doesn't make much sense to make him the "hard mode", wouldn't you say?
    And unlike Dan, i don't think he is meant to be a joke character.


    Because Tails' Flight isn't really conducive the the flow of the gameplay. Tails' flight doesn't really jell with the momentum and slopes.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
  3. Xiao Hayes

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    Well, I may have been rude, but the way you worded it this time and the next ones means you're not respecting the design enough to think enough about why it was like that, or you just don't understand game design that much and think random appreciations based on the relevance of a character has more weight than balance and a varied experience.

    1) Already shown, no need to add anything. Well, yes, I'll add Insta-shield is quite a powerful thing, it made my life a lot easier against Big Arms boss in vanilla Sonic 3, for example.
    2) You see it as a limitation, but he's the core gameplay and we enjoyed that before he had double jump skills and alternate playstyles through different characters. I don't need skills that ignore core gameplay to have more fun, in fact Sonic is always my main choice because it's the core of the game.
    3) I'll admit here's my headcanon and not official, but that's the way I always understood it and makes quite sense. Unshielded Sonic has an energy boost, shielded Sonic does the same but whoops! the shield reacted and showed an exclusive skill.
    4) I already said why, limitations might be there but you have plenty of games to have less simple controls and, do you know what? They're less fun to me because of that.
    5) Yeah, I know. Try to make a hack of S3&K to implement them, and you'll be able to experience that "how".

    I'm not saying everything's perfect as it is, but you're not providing good reasons to back your claim or provide solid solutions to fix it. That's why I think you should think it a little more.


    No, Knuckles is Hard Mode, because his routes are implemented with his moveset in mind, and, since it's easier to traverse a level with gliding and climbing, the levels demand you good control of those abilities, there's a limit to your jump height and you have extra nuisances like the ghost of Sandopolis messing with you since the beginning of their level. That's Hard Mode. And yes, Tails is Easy Mode here, essentially because he's a shorter Sonic that cheats by flying.


    So, you admit Tails' gameplay goes against the core of Sonic gameplay and, surprise! The elemental shields skills don't, which are implemented to the core character.
     
  4. ChaddyFantome

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    I'm going to be frank here. Sonic 3&K is not only my favorite Sonic game, but one of my favorite games' period. I'm just providing what I believe to be some valid criticisms of it...especially in a topic that is more or less dedicated to it? Believe me, I understand and appreciate the intent of its design, and while I am more than open to if not enamoured with learning more about it and the series at large, I do not appreciate the needlessly antagonistic and dismissive way my quite frankly innocent statement was being treated there....

    1) I'd argue that the instaShield kinda just breaks some of the boss fights outright when you know what you're doing with it. Its powerful, don't get me wrong, but it's not really equitable to Knuckles and Tails abilities which are about level traversal. The instashield isn't something that can really be appreciated in the same way, as it's something that only has very specific use cases and only really matters in terms of inches. None insignificant inches mind you, but inches nonetheless. And we know the devs felt similarly as well or they wouldn't have needed to lock the shield abilities to just Sonic to compensate.
    2) I'm...not exactly sure what is is you are getting at here. How are the ability to use the elemental shields being withheld from Tails and Knuckles relevant to whether Sonic is the core gameplay? Also, I'm not sure what the purpose of bringing up alternate gameplay styles in future games has to do with anything?
    3) Ok. I find it a bit silly to think a Wind-Slash is causing Sonic to Bounce though.
    4) Ok. Not sure what this has to do with anything I said.
    5) I really don't see how. Excluding Knuckles, which is more a result of the exclusive pathways unique to his playthrough and story more so than mechanics really, I don't see how having it possible to double jump with the Lightning shield with Tails would yield different results to Sonic for example. If anything, you provide the opportunity to use it in clever ways in addition to his flight.

    I mean, far as I can tell, you counters to my supposed weak points of contention seem rather flimsy? I mean, one is a thing you outright admit to being headcanon....


    I'm well aware....

    Kinda missing my point here.
    The reality is, the Fire Dash, Lighting Jump and Bubble bounce aren't core components of Sonic's base controls. They are abilities granted to him by powerups, and these are abilities restricted from the other characters to compensate for the fact Sonic is less interesting at base.
    While Tails' flight doesn't interact with the level design as interestingly as the Fire Dash, for example, the simple fact is unless the level design affords Sonic said Fire Shield, nothing has really changed in regards to how both can interact with said level geometry.

    Like, imagine if Luigi couldn't use the Fire Flower to compensate for the fact he jumps higher.

    Its a case of instead of choosing Sonic because he has a feature you wanna take advantage of, you are instead avoiding playing as a character because the designers limited them from core gameplay elements to make Sonic seem more interesting to play. And it worked, sure. I play as Sonic every time i play Sonic 3&K. But it always feels cheap as a result. At least to me. I'm not picking Sonic to play as Sonic. Instead I'm playing him because if I don't I dont get to use the actual game's features.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
  5. Koutoni

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    1) I'll mention the barrel because it's relevant to my point: the overuse of horrifically clunky level design to promote the gimmicks in each level. Both Hydrocity and Marble Garden are very good examples of this, where half the time you can have 230+ rings, and the other half is spent losing them because of the ridiculous object/enemy placement.

    2) The graphics bleed too much IMO and just seem everywhere. Sonic 1/2 and CD had much less of these graphical issues, and it's probably down to the more Americanised direction they took, favouring pseudo-3D shading which either looks great (in levels such as Hydrocity act2) or goddamn awful (both acts of Angel Island).

    3) The issue related to the game's soundtrack. I'm tempted to make a big fat updated page at some point and use it every time someone makes a stupid statement. That, and the mini-boss/boss themes should have been swapped IMO, though honestly? Quite a lot of the OST shows the same polarity issues as the level design and graphical direction.

    4) TAILS MODE AND MARBLE GARDEN'S BOSS. I HAVE NO WORDS TO SAY ON THIS ONE, JUST THE CAPITALS WILL STRESS ENOUGH HOW MUCH IT ANNOYED ME (especially given Tails is fluffy and my favourite character I even usually go as him alone in S2)

    Overall S3K has been by far the least enjoyable Sonic game I've gone through, almost feeling like an endurance at most times.

    While some of the criticisms could be poked as being very similar to CD, at least that one can be excused by having more of an exploration vibe to it. 3K doesn't.
     
  6. Xiao Hayes

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    Ok, different day, different mood. I'll start by apologizing about my excess of zeal in my answers and try to not repeat that behavior.

    I'll explain but not excuse what I did saying it sounded to me like those people attacking Classic Sonic just for the sake of it, like the people who complains because it has physics and is not like Mario or whatever they could say. Your criticism also sounded to me a bit like those "geniuses" that think Adventure or Boost Sonic is how Sonic should be and evaluate Classic Sonic with any random criticism they can pull without having any idea of game design. While it sounded like that to me, only the experience in game design is what I felt objective and triggered me. I have, and it's a lot harder than one could think, so I acted condescendent as a result and I understand you were pissed off.

    That said, I see where you were coming, and I'm not saying it wouldn't be possible to add a second button with extra nifty stuff, be it the same or something new, but that wouldn't be Classic Sonic because you'd have to think, even if it's only a small swift thought, which button do you have to press to trigger the right skill. It seems irrelevant, but not having to think that lets you focus and play instinctively instead and let you get better reaction times. In other games where reaction time and gameplay flow is not that demanding, or at least not that much when moving, having a second action button is OK, but, in Sonic games, classic or not, I notice every time I have to play a different button and distracts me because I have to make that small swift thought. Of course, that also happens when you have to change directions with the D-Pad, but at least the brain is focused on a single hand for that and not both of them. You might argue using spindash or super peel-out causes that break too, and that's why, of course, drop dash was a great addition and would have made a great addition had they make it work in 1994 instead of waiting until 2017. However, spindash and super peel-out are normally used when you have to stop anyways, so the pace is usually already broken by the time that happens.

    Now that we are talking about Mania and drop dash, I must say it felt a lot more distracting and disruptive to lose the drop dash when getting an elemental shield. My interpretations of the insta-shield aside, losing the dropdash when getting a shield is almost a punishment, which leads us to the crux of your complain about elemental powers and we can apply what I said about the single button at the same time. Either everyone loses their native skill when using the elemental shields, or we map stuff at that distracting second button; of course, there's a third option, which would be give custom elemental skills to everyone, adapted individually to integrate well with their base moveset. That's actually what happens in S3&K: even if the insta-shield hasn't exactly the same use as the elemental acrobatics, at least is a shield. In the case of Tails and Knuckles, or Drop Dash Sonic, it would get trickier, and I don't think the gameplay would be that different, so just doing the same always is probably a better choice.

    I agree Sonic is somehow neglected as he's the main char, however he gets less interesting signature abilities. However, the game is fully playable for him (Tails' shortcuts aren't a big deal and you can get to their other said with Sonic as well), except, of course, the routes for Knuckles which are tailored for his skills, but that's a reasonable "nerf" for Sonic if he won't visit them anyways. I like to play as Knuckles in S3&K because of those exclusive routes, and is nice that exclusive act in Mania, but, if it weren't for the exclusive content, I wouldn't see playing as him more appealing as playing as Tails. Tails himself is only appealing for me either for completionism (same as playing as either Sonic & Tails together or playing as Sonic alone), or when I don't want to make a great effort, so I use him and fly whein I miss a jump or don't want to try said jump. That's why I praised having a core gameplay character, and that core character being Sonic himself, because playing as him feels as a sequel of playing as him in previous games where the gameplay was already there, and because playing basic feels a nicer challenge. Not including here super and hyper forms, of course.

    So, from my perspective, even if insta-shield is a bit weak and odd compared to drop dash or other characters' abilities, it's not really nerfing Sonic, and even gives him a different kind of gameplay by enhancing his "combat prowess", and the elemental shields are still his navigation abilities, which deviate less from the core gameplay with their short-lived effects (extra jump height, extra jump distance, landing control). Those short effects might be weaker than flying freely or get more horizontal and vertical navigation with gliding and climbing, but S3 Sonic is still better (more skilled) than S2 Sonic, and feels as a natural progression from that game. Try to add stuff, and you'll either get more complicated controls or make some character feel less unique. If you really add a second button, it should be entirely optional to not break gameplay simplicity, or it should be a fully developed button that does something more than just activating elemental powers in the air, which requires more gameplay development, more intricated level design, etc.

    Oh, and sorry if the second time my points felt weaker, I was trying to add stuff to the first ones or make them clearer, not make those points standalone. I hope I was clear now, and, if you still don't see my point (I want you to understand it, not ask you to share it), then I can't do anything else. Hope that at least my apologies are enough.
     
  7. kyasarintsu

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    I don't think that having to press a second button is the big break in "instinctive play" state that you're making it out to be. As with any control scheme—especially as simple as this one—it becomes second nature. It's a thing called automaticity.
    A new button can always be a minor annoyance for a returning player to get used to, but I don't think that that's a hurdle worth ditching a more flexible control scheme over.
     
  8. Xiao Hayes

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    Maybe, but I noticed it a lot with modern games when they demanded constant use of extra action buttons, and that made my experience with the games less fluid. Of course, there's very little I can compare between classic and modern games, but I noticed it in Crackers and Chaotix also, although their second button is a lot different. I'm a huge fan of the single action button, anyways, it allowed me to take full control of Sonic since the beginning, spending the learning time in the abuse of the physics which didn't take long either to "automatize". I recognize I may be alone in this, however.
     
  9. Sid Starkiller

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    I knew there would be some resistance to the idea when I said it, but I think it'd work out fine. Personally, I never felt, say, 3D Blast or the Advance games suffered from it (granted Advance's B moves were not that useful outside Amy, but that's a separate issue), and I tend to default to one button in the classics anyway (B, because it's in the center of both the Genesis and Switch controllers).
     
  10. Palas

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    You're not. The single action button philosophy is the cornerstone of classic Sonic gameplay and what ultimately gives it its $1 grilled cheese cart quality. No matter the situation you're in, no matter what you've put yourself through, all you'll ever have is your own body to attack and use the terrain and the elements that are hostile to you, and you must throw yourself at it. Extremely simple and straightforward, but do figure your own shit out.
     
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