Bashing Sonic 3 & Knuckles OTHER THAN THE BARREL

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Sid Starkiller, Jul 21, 2020.

  1. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

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    The barrel is one thing that hardly bothers me at all. The first time I played the game I got stuck on the barrel for a short time, but at most only a day passed before I figured it out. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Am I remembering correctly that other barrels like that appear earlier in the zone? Just not ones that are actual obstacles?

    I always found the level select method to be really dumb in Sonic 3, but for the longest time I had only heard of the Angel Island route.
     
  2. Laura

    Laura

    Brightened Eyes Member
    I love Sonic 3 a lot and always did since I was a kid, but I also think that it's become kind of dogmatic for people to hold it up on this pedestal. People often say exactly the same things in praise of it (open levels, routes for each character) and don't really consider the game's flaws.

    When I replayed it before Mania came out, I was surprised by how annoying a lot of the levels are. Ice Cap is a really fun level to look at and it has a great soundtrack, but it also has that really annoying section where the spring knocks you back down the hill, and it's an endless loop section. I think Marble Garden is very dull, both in art and music, and I think the level design is serviceable at best. Sandopolis I think is straight up terrible. A lot of the levels are really fun mind.

    And while I do think the multiple playable characters are fun, they are a bit clunky in terms of utilising the series' trademark speed mechanics. Tails' flight is really slow and just makes the game really easy, despite being fun to do. Knuckles' abilities are better balanced I think, but his gliding and climbing especially are also slow. They aren't as fluid as, say, the spindash was in Sonic 2. And if you want to take their abilities specifically, I think one of the Sonic Advance games lets you spindash up walls as Knuckles? That's a better take on it I think.

    On some other points, I think the game's soundtrack isn't consistent because the MJ Team parts are so different from the rest of it. While their tracks are really great, I don't think the soundtrack is a cohesive experience. I think the game relies too much on traditional tropes (jungle, fire, ice, sand, etc) rather than taking the unusual ones which past games did (casino, chemical plant, labyrinth, mystic cave, etc).

    And while the 2 Player mode isn't horribly pixellated like Sonic 2, it's incredibly unfun to play. I used to play Sonic 2's 2 player with my brother a lot as a kid, but I never played Sonic 3's, because it was just boring.
     
  3. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

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    I was going to mention this earlier in the thread but decided not to. I guess I'll throw in my feelings about it now. Considering my preference for Sonic 1 and 2, I've found a lot of praise Sonic 3&K gets to be almost condescending towards those who don't hold it in such high regard. 3&K is "the odd one out" in so many ways, but some people find it unfathomable that someone might not like some of the things that make it so different.

    I've seen people list complaints about the other classic games that make 3&K supposedly better, but they list things that literally appear in 3&K. I'm not saying that I have no bias when discussing the Sonic games, and I hate the use of "nostalgia goggles" as an argument, but this sort of thing just fuels my distaste for 3&K's overratedness.
     
  4. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    I hate that Knuckles loses every bit of speed after gliding and landing on the ground.
     
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  5. Laura

    Laura

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    Sonic 3 has always been my favorite Sonic game because Tails was my favorite character and I wanted to fly around with him. The game was rare when I was a kid and I had to convince my parents to fork out £40 for it in 2000 or something. I played it endlessly years after it was relevant. And when I was really into it, the game was considered the odd one out and not as iconic as Sonic 2 by the general public.

    I don't have a vendetta against it and love the game still, but yeah, I find it a bit annoying the way people speak about it as though it's obviously better than everything else, especially when they'll also disregard Sonic 1 and 2 out of hand in comparison to it, which are both great games in their own right.

    I think it's dogma rather than nostalgia goggles though. A lot of people speak about Sonic 3 (multiple characters, open routes, more cutscenes - all is they are self-evidently good design) the same way they speak about Sonic Adventure (less linear levels, simplified Knuckles stages, hub world, 'more Sonic levels' - again, all as if these points are self-evidently good design). And I'm not saying it's a hive mind or anything, because there is plenty of room for nuance and slightly differing opinions amongst people, but I have noted that a lot of fans nevertheless conform to this. They repeat points about Sonic 3, many of which are subjective, as if they are inherently the pinnacle of game design.
     
  6. SystemsReady

    SystemsReady

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    This is odd to me because I pretty much n e v e r see anyone outside of here discuss S3&K. On twitter, most discussion is about the post 06 3D titles (if not also 06 itself), while here most of the discussion is about the latest titles to release or Sonics 1 & 2 & CD, with the occasional topic about 3&K that is usually about the music. S3&K discussion was dogmatic over a decade ago when I was on the SoA forums, but in terms of the greater community I feel it tends to get forgotten a lot.
     
  7. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

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    I've always liked Tails as well. I used to play as him in Sonic 2 all the time (I honestly can't remember if not being able to fly ever bothered me). Growing up in the early 2000s, to me Sonic 2 was the Sonic game. The best, most iconic thing from the series, as you say seemed to be the consensus of the general public. Granted, I didn't play Sonic 3 until 2011, and of course then became surprised when I started delving into the internet and finding out that so much of the fanbase considered 3&K the best.

    And I didn't mean to make it sound as if I was actually calling "nostalgia goggles". I was bringing it up to say that I'm not using that as an argument, and just worded it badly. I agree that a lot of it is dogma.
     
  8. Overlord

    Overlord

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    As mentioned upthread, the S3 code is simply up up down down spam-up-as-much-as-you-can-and-if-it-doesn't-work-reset-and-do-it-again. Back in the day I was the only one in my village who could do it (even then it'd usually take a dozen tries) but given how easy the game is it wasn't really something I did often anyway. I can do it almost first time every time nowdays - at 50Hz that is, it's a little more challenging at 60. =P
     
  9. Sid Starkiller

    Sid Starkiller

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    I kinda feel like the "general public vs hardcore fans" thing is at least partly because Sonic 1 and 2 were at different points bundled with the Genesis, while 3 wasn't. People were just plain more likely to have 1 and 2, so there more popular. Although you also played Sonic 3 for the first time as an adult. A game you played as a kid will always mean more to you than one you played as an adult. Hell, I didn't play Ocarina of Time until 2010 and I HATED it.

    I don't mean that to discredit your opinion, of course. That was part of the point of making this thread. Much as I love S3K, I will NEVER call it perfect (unless I'm making it clear that I'm joking). No video game can ever or will ever be perfect. And I want people to acknowledge such things. It's OK to see and point out the flaws in the things we love.
     
  10. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

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    When I say "growing up in the early 2000s", I mean early childhood, haha. I think simply saying "the 2000s" would've been more accurate. I was still only 12 when I played Sonic 3. I actually thought it was really cool the first time, because it was an unfamiliar, new Sonic experience. But the rush of personal hype eventually ran out and I was left with basically how I still feel about it.

    But yeah, otherwise your point is sound.
     
  11. TheOneAndOnlyJoebro64

    TheOneAndOnlyJoebro64

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    I like Sonic 3 because it feels like the absolute culmination of everything that came before. It irons out the problems of 1 and 2 while capitalizing on their strengths IMO.
    Nah. Mario 64 would like to have a word with you.
     
  12. SuperSnoopy

    SuperSnoopy

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    Funny way to type Resident Evil 4 :V

    Anyway, his topic has made me realise a lot of little problems Sonic 3 has. It not enough to make me like the game less, but it's interesting to see what other might dislike about a game I love so much.
    As someone that started with the 3D games, the automation never really bothered me, but I could see how someone that played 1 and 2 first might not be sold on them. I still think these sections are important to set the tone, though. Sonic 3 is an immersive experience and the odd on rail cutscene is necessary for it imo.
     
  13. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

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    I gave my word, and I delayed it too much. Not too much to unbash, though:

    - MGZ boss (S/T version) is one of my favourites in the game: it starts with an epic scene, the whole place crumbling under your feet after Doc dug so much one additional digging collapses everything, but Tails rising high up in the sky to chase Robotnik and have an aerial fight. While the gameplay may not be stellar, and harder as Tails, it's distinct enough and not that hard, plus I love to see poor Tails constantly chasing a falling Sonic. If only Tails was able to fly that much time on a regular basis...

    - I agree 2P mode is a bit dumb in this game, specially with the annoying item selection available, but I spent a lot of time trying to get my best times in Time Attack mode, which also feels as good training on common Sonic skills, plus there's some interesting content in these tiny levels that should have been in the main game. Hell, most of the zones in Competition mode are more interesting than some others from the same game.

    Aaaaand, I think that's all. I could argue about some other stuff, but I could probably say liitle more than "Well, I actually like that as it is, why is it so bad?", so it's not worth trying.
     
  14. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    2P wasn't bad as a minigame sort of thing (and translating the 1 player levels to split screen would have been WAY harder than in Sonic 2), but I was disappointed it wasn't remotely expanded or finetuned with the SK lock on extension. Like having a second Competition Mode with a different five levels in Sonic and Knuckles and then combining them like with one player.

    But nope, nothing. Not even any bugfixes or Knuckles' abilities added (despite bothering to make the sprites for them). It was a complete oversight in an otherwise juiced up extravaganza of a game.
     
  15. TheInvisibleSun

    TheInvisibleSun

    OVER THE TOP TECHNO-BLAST Member
    That's odd; maybe my memory is failing me, but I specifically remember going back to Angel Island for the last couple of Super Emeralds and seeing the flashing ring instead of the standard giant ring.

    Labyrinth Zone Act 3?

    As a 60hz player, I struggled with it, until I realized it was much easier to pull off with the controller held sideways (using both thumbs!). That raised my success rate to about 30% haha. But yeah, I'm not sure how many hours I spent constantly resetting, trying to make it work; I honestly started thinking the code was fake (all I had to go off of was those cheat code books you got from the library/bookstores), until I finally heard that wonderful ring chime sound.

    About Marble Garden, I'm honestly dumbfounded at the negative opinion of the music I've seen recently. I've always loved those tracks, but maybe nostalgia is playing a hand there (although I will admit that I also thought Carnival Night (MD/GEN) was the best track in the game as a kid, but I digress). Love the jazzy rhythm it has, and I actually like the subtlety of the Act 2 remix. Regarding the level itself, I never really felt lost because of how rewarding it was to explore the level; I just kept running into special stage rings, items, secret passageways and the like (and it didn't really feel 'slow' or 'tedious' for the most part) and that was awesome for me as a kid, especially since I sucked at Blue Sphere.

    Maybe the ludicrous number of special stage opportunities is a valid criticism, especially in comparison to the S&K half. I think Marble Garden alone has about 13 or 14 big rings? It's almost like the game is begging you to get them all. I first played Sonic 3 Alone when I was around 7 or 8, and I got Super Sonic at Ice Cap Act 1 (I was stuck on special stage 7 from Marble Garden onward), on my first playthrough of the game. This was especially jarring, coming off of Sonic 1 and 2, where it is much more difficult.

    As much as I am very nostalgic for MGZ, I can't ignore the jankiness of the spinning tops, and I hate that they brought them back for Generations. They were only fun when zipping around on the ground, but other than that they were, and still are, annoyingly tedious. I also will admit that the stage has a few cheap hits here and there.

    I didn't get a S&K cart for about a year afterward, so I have a lot of nostalgia for the S3 alone themes. I loved and still absolutely love the Knuckles and Miniboss themes, as it sets a perfect 'minor-but-still-obstructive-enemy' vibe. For Knuckles, it worked especially well, since I didn't know Eggman tricked him at first (I got the game used, with no booklet); I thought he was just an annoying enemy that stole my emeralds and kept screwing me over. It just wouldn't have felt the same for me with his S&K theme, even though it fits his real character.

    The S3 alone Invincibility theme is awful though, and this is especially evident when super.

    I'll also quickly echo the same sentiments toward the Lava Reef Act 2 Boss, the SOZ repel sequences, the SOZ1 boss (I don't know how many times I hit it toward the right before figuring it out), and the SOZ2 endless slide. In the same vein, the light tubes in Death Egg were only cool setpieces the first time, but now they suck every time I accidentally run into one because they take forever.

    Also, random boss issue I haven't seen in the thread yet, but the DEZ Act 2 boss with Super Tails, man. What a killjoy. It feels amazing cheesing the game with Super Tails until you get to that boss with over 100 rings and have to just stand there like an idiot and wait until you run out.

    EDIT: I also tried to make myself love Competition mode, but it's just not as fun as Sonic 2's 2-Player. I love the music and the zone aesthetics, but the short level loops don't quite do it for me.
     
  16. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

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    Sorry, I don't get it. Was there some bug or anything like that? I don't remember having any issues. Also, people, you have to be more specific when talking about DEZ2 bosses, because, you know, that's a plural. Sometimes I can't guess if you're talking about the mini-death egg room (yes, that's how I call that boss), or the giga-robot. I suppose losing time worth 100 rings fits the ball room better, but i can't see the difference about doing it with Super Tails or any other transformation.
     
  17. Palas

    Palas

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    Ah, that's right. And also Metropolis at some point, I vaguely remember now (I really have to play them all again). So my point is invalid.
     
  18. Fadaway

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    It definitely does not happen in the Sonic 3 Complete version I have on a flash cart. Perhaps it does in the original 3 & Knuckles, I'd have to check.
     
  19. Fadaway

    Fadaway

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    Yes, Metropolis has an endless loop fall. Unless it doesn't in which case this could be a new Mandela effect.
     
  20. kyasarintsu

    kyasarintsu

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    I liked the small, looping nature of the competition mode stages. It gave the traps and items some use they otherwise wouldn't have.
    The physics are pretty ridiculous, though.