Bashing Sonic 3 & Knuckles OTHER THAN THE BARREL

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Sid Starkiller, Jul 21, 2020.

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  1. laughing_sun

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    They could have always used Track 10.
     
  2. Fred

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    No they couldn't lol. Masa's lawyers would be up their ass.
     
  3. laughing_sun

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    This seems like a strange assumption to make given I'm sure no one has first-hand knowledge of the legal agreements made at the time regarding the Sonic 2 soundtrack outside of SEGA themselves. Obviously we have seen the music from Sonic 2 reused in future titles, so unless those rights were re-negotiated, it would appear SEGA owns the rights to use that music as they see fit. We've seen several instances of unused tracks in Sonic 3D Blast for instance showing up years later in Sonic 4. The popular theory is that Sonic 3 is in limbo due to (potential) music rights issues with the Jackson estate, and yet we still get a version of Chemical Plant in every game complete with a remixed version of the music. Sonic Mania was a completely new title and featured many stages from Sonic 2 with the correct music or at least remixed versions of the correct music. So either SEGA had to re-negotiate those rights, or they've just had them this whole time. Either way, yes, they clearly could have used Track 10 if they wanted, since they have reused others from the very same game seemingly without impediment.
     
  4. Dek Rollins

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    I'm pretty sure Masa didn't do the soundtrack for 3 because he was having disagreements with Sega about payment. I believe he owns the copyright to the music he wrote for Sonic 1 and 2, so they would have had to work something out with him, immediately after they parted ways because they didn't want to work something out with him. You mention music from 3D Blast being reused, but IIRC that was all Jun Senoe's work that he himself was reusing.

    I think Masa and Sega got on better terms when they collaborated again in 2006, which is why they started using his music in a lot more stuff after that, but I could be misremembering.
     
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  5. SuperSonicRider

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    With Sonic Mania, it's also worth mentioning that the soundtrack available for download omits the songs associated with Green Hill, Chemical Plant, and Oil Ocean. So while it's not in the legal limbo S3's OST seems to be stuck in, Nakamura-original compositions seem to still be very much his specifically and not SEGA's. They probably just paid him for Mania, considering he and his songs have their own section in the game credits. (Tracks composed by Nakamura were also given credit as far back as Sonic Advance even, which uses a select few songs from S1 & S2.) All of this to say that with S3, they probably couldn't have used "Track 10" from S2 unless they wanted to pay specifically for that track for some reason.

    I think, considering the circumstances of S3 Hidden Palace, using the LRZ2 music was probably the best move in the end. Sky Sanctuary's music has this cool "discovery" vibe to it and I wouldn't say on its own it's super unfitting for HPZ - it was definitely interesting to see it used that way in the prototypes, but using it for HPZ, SSZ, and the endings would probably make it feel a bit overused in the endgame. Which reminds me, it's a bit of a shame that the S3&K credits didn't incorporate some of the S3 zone songs into the full medley in the end, but I guess that was (kind of) another consequence of the game getting split in two.
     
  6. Sid Starkiller

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    Gonna partially disagree for this one. You're right about the air of discovery to Sky Sanctuary's track, but it also has a very "open area high in the way" vibe that doesn't at all fit an underground crystal palace like HPZ.
     
  7. SystemsReady

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    Don't forget as well that the OST release that came with the Plus JP physical version also lacks them too! Even when releasing something special Sega doesn't seem keen on putting those tracks on there (despite being re-arranged. hmmm)
     
  8. Xilla

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    I don't think any of Nakamura's tracks (outside of the Generations remixes) have officially made it onto Spotify either have they?
     
  9. Koutoni

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    Or any of the other distribution channels for that matter. A lot of Japanese artists seem to avoid them or they’re inaccessible on the Western versions of the applications...
     
  10. This is probably my main complaint (alongside minor things that have been fixed by the fan hacks like being able to enter/exit super modes more selectively). I think they could've done a lot more with Tails' game and given him some more unique paths (or even entire acts), like Knuckles' game. As it is, he's mostly Sonic's game with a few extra hidden areas, which is an improvement over his previous appearance but still a bit disappointing compared to Knuckles.

    I'm kind of surprised by the consensus that his game is the easiest; I always thought it was harder since he has to go much longer without a super mode (never getting one in Sonic 3 alone) and his flying ability is less generally useful than Sonic's insta-shield or Knuckles' glide, which make badniks more threatening and boss fights harder (not to mention his Marble Garden boss inherently being the trickiest). But I never really used his flying ability to skip tons of stuff (and I'm not even sure the extent to which that's feasible with the game's level design).
    It would be nice if they at least didn't have enough rings in the stage to let you enter a bonus stage at the star post (or removed the star post, which is arguably unnecessary for such a short stage, even preceding a boss fight), since that lets you get a shield or enough rings to enter a super form and make an easy fight even more ridiculously one-sided.
     
  11. nineko

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    Well, Tails is the only character who can access one of the most elusive areas in the game, that room in Hidden Palace with all the monitors, and, on top of that, he can only do so in the combined S3&K, since Hidden Palace is in the Sonic & Knuckles half.

    But I agree with you, not even this big secret makes up for the general lack of Tails' exclusive paths.

    edit: added quote per new page
     
  12. kyasarintsu

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    I replayed this game and I found a new weird thing to complain about: it's surprisingly easy to wander into a Tails-only area as Sonic. I spend time platforming through some place only to find a vertical shaft lined with spikes. I then have to backtrack and find some other path.
     
  13. ChaddyFantome

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    I find the decision to create power ups like the Fire, Bubble and Lightning Shield only to limit their use for Knuckles and Tails in order to validate indirectly the presence of Sonic being at base a less interesting character to play as to be rather weak from a design perspective, especially given they did so on purpose as opposed to it being a restriction as a result of limited control inputs.

    It shows how little faith they had in the Wind Slash/Insta-Shield as an equitable move to Tails' Flight and Knuckles' Gliding and Climbing tbqh.
    My sincerest hats off to Mania for gracing us with the Drop Dash in that regard, as it is the more fitting and adequate addition to Classic Sonic's kit, emphasizing his main trait and keeping it at the forefront, while being conducive to the game's core gameplay.

    That said, I don't think we need to limit the Fire, Dash, lighting Jump and Bubble Bounce to Sonic anymore. Its an arbitrary and clunky restriction that makes playing at the other characters less fun for no reason.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
  14. Xiao Hayes

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    I have a lot to say about that:

    1) We know they tried to have drop dash in Sonic 3, so I see the Insta-shield as a patch, not the elemental shields themselves.
    2) Sonic's versatility with the elemental shields is actually something I find really attractive, especially if they would have expanded the shield roster in future games.
    3) The insta-shield is technically the way Sonic stimulates the elemental shields to produce their special effects, so it's quite coherent to restrict them for him.
    4) The controls where made to be simple, they could have used more buttons to allow everyone to do everything but that would have gone against the design philosophy of the classic games.
    5) Changing the double-jump skill of Tails and Knuckles with the same effects as Sonic's would have been very disruptive to the design of those characters, and it would be quite a challenge to have new interesting ones for them without breaking their aerial mechanics.

    In short, it's clear you didn't think enough about it.
     
  15. Sid Starkiller

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    How much use would Tails/Knuckles get out of those moves, though? Hell, for Knuckles, the Double Jump could be outright dangerous: imagine using it to get into a Sonic-only area, losing the Lightning Shield, and then getting stuck somewhere because of his lower jump height.

    I also think that's Sonic's appeal compared to Tails/Knuckles: where they have consistency, Sonic has versatility, allowing you to tailor his moves to suit your preferences or the current situation. I'd actually like to see them and the Instashield alongside the Drop Dash. The only thing I can think of would be (assuming Switch controls, replace with your preferred equivalent) A/B perform Drop Dash, and Y the others.
     
  16. ChaddyFantome

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    1) First I hear that Drop Dash was supposed to be in Sonic 3. You have any source on that?
    2) Sure, but i can't help but see it as an artificial limitation on the powerups in order to justify Sonic's base abilities being inferior to the other characters, is more my point.
    3) I'm...not sure what gave you this idea. I'm not quite sure what the instashield has to do with Bouncing in a Bubble barrier or Design as a FireBall. if Mania is anything to go by, I don't think it has much relevance in that equation either...
    4) Im aware the controls were made to be simple. One of the founding philosophies around the game was the 1 button + D-pad combo, which allowed the game to be simple enough to justify its speedy gameplay. At least in practice. I'm not sure where the assumption I don't know this comes from. All that said, I do believe even by Sonic 3 that this philosophy was starting to show its limits, and the Shield Powers are an example of this in my eyes.
    5) I don't really see how.


    Not sure where the snide is coming from... Seems unnecessary.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
  17. Dek Rollins

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  18. ChaddyFantome

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    Tails would get plenty given he goes into Sonic's routes anyway. Knuckles' being deliberately segmented away from Sonic's though does bring up a valid point i didn't consider.

    I suppose I don't really think of versatility in the same way I think of Flight for Tails or Gliding/Climbing for Knuckles when I think of Sonic. I'd typically think of Speed and Style, and in that regard, I feel the Drop Dash cements his position and defined trait in that respect much better than the ensemble of eclectic potential abilities limited by the distribution the game allows.
     
  19. nineko

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    Not all the characters have to be in the same tier, you call that limitation, I call that challenge, think about Dan from Street Fighter or Peach from Doki Doki Panic Super Mario Bros 2. Many games have characters which can or cannot do certain things, another example is Knights of the Round and its stars.
     
  20. Sid Starkiller

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    What I meant by that was: the primary function of the Bounce and Double Jump is to gain extra height. Why would Tails ever use them when his flight gives significantly more height? You could arguably make a case for the Fire Dash, but I don't think it ever makes nuch difference even as Sonic.
     
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