Sonic Forces Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    If this is Generations 2 with more boost, then I couldn't be happier. Honestly, I don't really get the complaints surrounding Modern gameplay. Yeah the controls are a little tank-y, but it's nowhere near as bad as Unleashed day stages were. There's nothing stopping you from going a little slower and exploring. Even doing that, it feels fine to me.

    To me, Sonic has never been about success. (Feel free to take that quote out of context) The challenge comes in how fast you can go, and how awesome you can both look and feel while doing it. I don't know about you, but those 30-second competitive speedrun challenges in Generations were what made me realize that Modern stages delivered on that design philosophy. And the Red Rings provide a perfect solution for those who prefer to take things slow and explore.

    So I have faith that this game will be great, and we won't fall into the Sonic Cycle again. In 2015 Jon Rooke was quoted in saying "Aw hell, we royally fucked up" so I think at this point SEGA is focused on delivering a quality product over appealing to the lowest common denominator. Especially with Pontac & Graff being shown the door and Ian Flynn rumored to be the new series writer, I expect nothing less of awesomeness.
     
  2. Josh

    Josh

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    That is precisely how I feel, and I couldn't have said it better myself. Except...

    Nah, they really don't. The Red Rings are a thing you'll do one time, but they're not at all what the game is designed around. Those who dislike Generations and the boost style of gameplay generally criticize it not because the style itself is especially flawed, but because "building skill to speed faster and faster through zones" isn't what they want Sonic to be. Which, to be clear, is a perfectly reasonable standpoint to have. This series has been entirely too many different things over the years, and it's natural that some people are going to be partial to one preference or another. For instance, I adore the classic and boost gameplay styles, and I while like the speed stages of the Adventure style, they don't hold a candle to the other two in my eyes.

    Unfortunately, people are weirdly hesitant to admit that they HAVE biases and that IT'S OKAY TO LIKE THINGS and criticize other things based on the things that you like, so you end up with arguments that try to frame that subjectivity into more factual flaws.

    Put another way, the fact that Sonic Lost World has a time attack mode is no substitute for the fact that the core gameplay in no way resembles what a Sonic game "should" be to me. Put ANOTHER another way, I don't typically like RPGs, and if I tried to review one, I'd make lots of recommendations (speed up the gameplay! stop interrupting me with cutscenes! why does combat have to be turn-based?) that would ruin what fans of the genre LIKE about RPGs.

    This is also why, I think, the classic series is so beloved by the majority of people, especially older fans. Sure, Sonic CD was more exploration-based and Sonic 2 was more speed-focused, but they could cater well to either preference.
     
  3. RhikoruNa

    RhikoruNa

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    Call me a parrot but I agree, too. Replaying Unleashed day levels via Unleashed Project then going to the Generations levels, I realized how less they'd punish you for awkward moments. Day stages in the original game already had those awkward QTE jumps which Unleashed Project took out, but I found myself running into far less odd moments in Generations compared to Unleashed. Chun-Nan's awkward interjections of those wheel platforms right in the middle of stretches of speed, Adabat's spikes punishing you out of nowhere. Failure in Unleashed is death whether from traps, QTEs, or awkward stops, while failure in Generations just leads to you missing a shortcut or higher path. It really refined Unleashed well, so further refinement would be very welcome.
     
  4. Overlord

    Overlord

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    I did touch on this when I did my review for the first page - they're better, but they're still inaccurate. You can hold down to roll out of a U shaped pit, but 1) it takes longer and 2) there comes a point where Sonic won't increase in height any more than about his height above the pit - IE it's entirely dependent on him touching ground as to how high he goes, not his momentum. There's still fundamental errors in the physics here.
     
  5. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    It's not like Classic Sonic's physics are bad, either. The level design is built around them and they work fine. It's not like Sonic 4, where the levels were built with Genesis physics in mind and what we got was a complete mess. Getting Classic Sonic's physics to be a 1:1 recreation of the Genesis ones was not the design philosophy, and there's no reason it should be. It's slower platforming based around precision and timing. Nothing wrong with that.

    The reason Classic Sonic gameplay exists is to even out the pacing of the game, and keep it from being completed in 2 hours. It's not there so SEGA can throw it in Retro's face and say "THERE, HAPPY?"
     
  6. Blue Blood

    Blue Blood

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    I wanted to add to this and say that the other reason that people forgot about Gens 3DS is that is was incredibly lazy. Three levels in the entire game had decent layouts, and surprise surprise it's because they were C&P'd from the original Classics. The remaining levels for Classic Sonic and all of those for Modern Sonic were crap. Plus the game looked kinda bad too. So even if it was the best attempt at something Classic after Advance 1, it was far from perfect at best and pretty rubbish at worst. No wonder people "don't remember".

    I'm still doubtful that Classic Sonic will be what he 'should' be in Project 2017. Generations HD made Classic Sonic fun even if very different to the Classics, but there's still issues with it even as an independent product. The controls are both stiff and floaty at the same time, and the game is utterly marred by automation. And automation doesn't just mean springs and boosters (which are problem for sure), it's also all the invisible triggers that make Sonic automatically run at a certain speed and hit certain heights off of ramps even though he should have gone much higher/lower based on his speed. The level layouts were generally pretty sound though. But yeah, the automation problem got consistently worse across all the 3D games and seems to just be "accepted" as part of Sonic now, and I bloody hate it.
     
  7. Beltway

    Beltway

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    Yeah, despite popular belief, the Generations 3DS physics are still very weird in the context of Genesis gameplay when you actually get a good look at them. It's especially notable when you play the original recreated levels from the classic games, as the the new physics engine really doesn't complement the original level layout. It's not built around it in the same way the original engine is.



    With that said, the physics being better in Generations 3DS rather than Generations HD doesn't really account for much, because the level design falls off a cliff the moment after the Genesis-era levels ends. Which makes Generations HD far and away the better game for me, the levels for classic Sonic --while, like the physics, not entirely following from the Genesis game-- were just much more fun to go through and explore. I'd even go as far to say that classic Sonic's half in Generations HD had the best level design for any Sonic game in years.
     
  8. Felik

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    - physica don't complement original level design
    - shows a clip where jumpdash and superspindash are abused as if it proves anything
     
  9. Jayextee

    Jayextee

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    Pretty much this. And the entire reason I'm completely fine with the chubby mute being in this game. I mean in Generations (HD), Crisis City Classic was some of the best platforming I'd played all decade - I love that stage (and, you know, some of the other ones were great too -- thinking here about Speed Highway and Ocean Palace <3 ) .
     
  10. Jason

    Jason

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    Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I personally cannot stand the Classic side of the home version of Generations. Scripted ramps and Sonic 4-esque physics wouldn't let me shake the felling it was a facade. It just felt really janky since I'm intimidately familiar with how the originals control.
     
  11. Beltway

    Beltway

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    If that's all you took from the video, OK then, whatever. If you didn't get my point here, then don't worry about it.
     
  12. TheKazeblade

    TheKazeblade

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    At the end of the day, as long as the modern stages significantly refine the way Sonic handles at low speeds and opens up the level design the way Modern Seaside Hill did for EVERY level of Project 2017, I will consider it a success.

    I still think Classic Sonic in this game is redundant, won't handle as well as in Mania and is occupying a space I would much rather see filled by Tails and/or Knuckles, but there are still a couple of positives for his inclusion:

    A. Mainstream game outlets will still herald the 2D sections as the best part of the game because they have no idea what they're talking about; we saw it with the review scores of S4:E1 and Generations and we will see it here too. Even though we're all aware that they're completely uninformed, it will help bolster review scores which the franchise needs significantly to repair it's reputation. Having two critically lauded Sonic games release within a few months of each other will do that.

    B. Going back to 2D classic level design requires Sonic Team to constantly re-evaluate what made the classics' level design great. Theoretically that exposure will have positive influence to all of their work.
     
  13. JcFerggy

    JcFerggy

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    I echo this statement completely. Many Modern levels in Generations had 3D sections that were basically just straight corridors or a quick drift corner with the rest of the level relying too much on a 2D for its platforming (Colors relied too much on 2D).

    Another thing I would really want is something similar to the Egg Shuttle from Colors, basically to be able to play from one level to the next without interruption till the end of the game like the classic games. I just find replaying or speedrunning the game a pain when I have to sit through all the cutscenes.
     
  14. stescoedw

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    I hear what you're saying but the level design for Classic Sonic in Generations wasn't even that bad. If anything it was better than Modern's. The only thing that needed to be fixed was his physics but since that needs to be done with Modern as well why do you only want Classic not to be in the game?

    Sega has not said that the Sonic's friends like Knuckles and Tails are not playable but people are acting like all because Classic is in the game nobody else is. Even if he is in the game at the risk of other characters how is that a bad thing. His game play was not bad as some people are making it out to be. If Sega decided not to put other characters in the game, they should not attack the idea of Classic being in the game. We should be saying "gee why isn't Sega adding Sonic's friends and leave it at that.

    Maybe this is more a cover up people don't like Classic Sonic is appearing in more games than Modern Sonic?
     
  15. TheKazeblade

    TheKazeblade

    "Our Life is More than a Side-Effect" Member
    I want modern Sonic games to be able to stand on their own merits and mechanics instead of supporting themselves with added gameplay gimmicks and nostalgia. We haven't had a boost formula game that was purely modern since 2010, and the boost gameplay has seen so much refinement since then. I want it capitalized on and expanded out into a full game.

    Classic Sonic is great, but Mania is 100% more likely to get his gameplay right than Project 2017. Which means time is being taken away from making Modern even more refined in order to develop Classic Sonic levels that will inevitably be inferior.

    Classic Sonic is great in Classic Sonic games. Keep him in games that best compliment his strengths and let Sonic Team prove what the modern formula is capable of. Because their constant reliance on crutches like the Werehog in Unleashed, emphasis on 2D in Colors and Classic in Generations just feels like they're covering up some percieved shortcoming at best and straight-up being lazy at worst.

    I think Project 2017 will end up being pretty good; I'm not saying Classic will detract from it's overall quality, but it IS detracting from the Modern formula's equity.
     
  16. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    I just
    want everyone
    to stop being so
    goddamn cynical
    about a trailer for something we know dick-all about.

    When I came back from the Anniversary stream, I was really hoping the general reaction from the community would be "Well, I would prefer a totally-Modern game, but Generations 2 would still be cool." But no. Instead people choose to take a game we barely know anything about and judge it as guilty until proven innocent. Because you want to complain, you want to be cynical, and you want the Sonic Cycle to be real so that you can keep doing it for years to come.

    Here's the thing: the average Classic Sonic fan (IE anyone not here) either didn't notice Generations's physics were different, or didn't care. It's not like Sonic 4, where the physics were just utterly broken and you could actually feel how broken they were in the sluggish control. You weren't walking up walls, you weren't coming to dead stops in an instant, your jump wasn't floaty and your character had weight. Everything in Classic Sonic's level design took his physics into account. It didn't really matter that it wasn't a 1:1 recreation of what we saw on Genesis, because the game was still fucking fun. All that mattered was that it had slower more-controlled platforming to offset Modern boosting everywhere, and continued the Sonic tradition of having multiple routes, lots of level gimmicks, and smooth speedy platforming. I would think that would be enough for most people.

    If you didn't like Generations, and don't want Generations 2, that's fine. But don't frame that as saying Classic Sonic will control better in Mania, so somehow this means there's no point. There is nothing set in stone about Classic Sonic's physics, and there's no reason they can't change. All that matters is if the game is built AROUND said physics, and that they make logical sense. Some people who are complaining about Classic Sonic being here still believe Generations was a fantastic game at the end of the day, so there's really no reason for them to be cynical other than 10 years of being cynical. If anything, people should be humble. Mania was made by Retro, for Retro. Yes, it was made for the 30-somethings who haven't played a Sonic game in 20 years, but it was primarily made for you. YOU are the ones who kicked and screamed for this, nobody else. At this point, you are at the top of Sonic Team's list of fans to please. So I think it's time to stop being so cynical and stop criticizing every tiny little thing you don't like.

    Can't we be happy for once? Can't we judge these titles as innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around?
     
  17. TimmiT

    TimmiT

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    Your "can't we be happy for once" question should be answered by all the hype for Mania. :v:

    Anyway, we're not being cynical. A lot of us are expecting this game to be good. We're being skeptical about certain parts of the game, but that doesn't mean we expect it to be bad. We can acknowledge that games have their faults and still enjoy them for what they do well.

    And really, why shouldn't we be skeptical? We're talking about a new Sonic Team game here.
     
  18. Josh

    Josh

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    Excellent rant, Dubs.

    To me, I've always viewed Classic Sonic in Generations as something more akin to Donkey Kong Country Returns to the SNES trilogy, or even Rayman Origins to Rayman '95. It's not trying to be a one-to-one recreation of the originals' controls and physics, and so it should stand or fall on its own merits. That being said...

    Five years removed from Generations, I can admit that the classic stages, while very well-designed and fun to play, are NOT as compelling to me as the modern ones. And I think that if they HAD been designed more in-line with the Genesis' stages and physics, I wouldn't feel that way.

    Classic Sonic, with his one-button spindash that he can hit at any time and surprising amount of scripted sequences, doesn't set himself apart far enough from Modern Sonic for my tastes. But the Act 2s have 3D and bigger setpieces and way more speed and nuance, the skill ceiling is higher, and so those are the stages that I've ended up playing a lot more of.

    I'm not at all saying it's bad or even mediocre. Especially with the elemental shields (WHY WEREN'T THOSE IN MONITORS?), there's still plenty of room for variety. It's just very obvious that the same team designed both styles of gameplay, and that they were a lot more acclimated to the Act 2s.

    So a hypothetical Classic Sonic that didn't have the "Press X to spindash" and had more well-defined physics, power-ups, and stage design that set him apart more from Modern Sonic would, in my opinion, be preferable. I'm not saying it has to be an exact match for the 16-bit physics, either, but in Generations it was just too easy to hit your max speed with Classic Sonic with a button, instead of through the physics.
     
  19. TheInvisibleSun

    TheInvisibleSun

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    I may or may not be alone here, but I'd love to see full, outright 3D Classic Sonic gameplay. It would obviously be a bold move on their part to depart from the 'safe' 2D design, but it would just be beautiful if they do it well, and it would certainly help eliminate the feeling of redundancy some are getting with Classic Sonic's appearance here.
     
  20. stescoedw

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    I'd like to see something like that as well but if they do that, what would Modern Sonic's purpose be?