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Sonic Forces Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. Lozicle

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    Assuming the game is returning to the Boost style of gameplay (which was what they hinted toward), I would be completely down with that. The boosty, jumpy, perspective-switchy gameplay is not only very fitting for Sonic, but it's very original too. I can't think of any other games with this sort of ultra-high speed 3D platforming. As long as they keep improving it, I'd be down with this being how Sonic controls in 3D (though I do have a friend who keeps telling me that you don't really control Sonic so much as you steer him).

    I guess my major beef with Classic Sonic's return (besides it retroactively cheapening the impact of Generations) is that Sonic Team seems to be dodging what is perhaps the major issue with Sonic right now: his lack of an identity. We have three Sonics running around right now. One is delegated to a sub-franchise, which I guess is fine as long as it has its own style and tone (which it mostly doesn't, but okay). Other than appearance though, the only difference between Classic and Modern Sonic is that one is 2D all of the time, and the other is 2D some of the time but also not always? I think a lot of us know what Classic Sonic really symbolizes, which is why we're excited for Sonic Mania. But who is Modern Sonic? What is his aesthetic? What does he represent? Not just in gameplay, but in tone and world. Rather than answering that question, Sonic Team is just throwing Classic Sonic back with him. Not that I really blame them; just look at how Generations was received. Still, it'd be nice to have some idea of what Modern Sonic is.
     
  2. bombatheechidna

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    Modern Sonic is simply super speed platforming. It's not rocket science. Classic Sonic is more methodical but its speed platforming as well. I don't see a problem with Sega satisfying both Classic and Modern fans. I mean that's the smart thing to do for sells and in the end everybody's happy. You have an entire fan base dedicated to Classic Sonic like Modern and when they see him they are going to want to play the game. That's the reality of things right now. It's also not Classic's fault for Sonic's lack of identity because he's always been around. He was just on vacation for an extended period of time. Blame Sega for feeling the need to add Boom Sonic who is basically Modern Sonic in a scarf.

    In my eyes, yes there were two Sonics in Generations and it seems to be the case in this game as well but it isn't like it didn't work out in the end. I can see if Sonic was in a bad state after Sonic Generations, but he wasn't, so why are we complaining? Who cares if there are two Sonics as long as a good game comes out of it. It worked out just fine when they did it, so why wouldn't it work now unless they have the exact same game play with no improvements which I doubt will happen. We should just enjoy Sonic for what it is because right now he seems to be in a good state.

    We also can't judge who else will be playable in the game just by looking at a teaser trailer.
     
  3. Amnimator

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    Reason I doubt the gameplay will be like the boost games are a few reasons:
    1. The general audience doesn't want to play them at all simply because of how the gameplay looks. As bad as I feel Adventure 2 was, it did a really good job of bringing in new fans.
    2. The gameplay style generally sells worse each installment. Generations only sold slightly better than Unleashed, despite being the big return of Classic Sonic.

    Back when Generations was nearing release, I tried a demo on a store kiosk. Some guy came behind me and said that he wanted to see how Sonic was doing after 20 years. After he saw me play the stage he just said he wouldn't buy it. Things along the line of, "It's too fast" and "It's too blurry". And it certainly didn't help that the boost games had sub 30 framerates on PS360. Also, right before the 25th anniversary stream, I was hanging around at PSOBB(Ephinea). Some people were around the lobby talking about Sonic, and much of them said that the boost games were trash because they didn't really let you move left or right, or they didn't play like a platformer, or even the heavy lack of 3D gameplay. A common theme was people who left the Sonic series and don't want to touch it again.
    If you want to make it appeal to platforming fans, it better be a platformer is what I'm saying. This also seems to be a common issue with Sonic games in the past. The 2 most important thing I feel in a platformer are player physics and level design. If your character controls horribly, the game plays horribly. If the level design is garbage, the game is going to be garbage. Notice the worst Sonic games' reception was due to both of these. The boost games really didn't mesh well with the part of the fanbase who wanted more platforming and less speed. Granted Sonic games are much harder to develop than Mario, making a good Sonic game in 3D involves a balance between platforming and speed; two concepts that almost contradict each other. The boost games were more along the lines of speed (insert overpowered insta-spindash here) so granted a lot of people were unhappy.
    While trying to appeal to everyone in one game will inevitably produce garbage, trying to make your game appeal to a specific audience will also do the same. Plus, those games were advertised as 3D platformers, you can't blame them for being upset about the lack of 3D platforming.
    In the end though, now that I think of it, 3D Sonic level design is a pretty darn difficult thing to do. It seems they decided to cheap out and give you a tiny obstacle course in 3D that might as well be in 2D, then switch over to 2D for 75% of the level in Generations and Colors. Seaside Hill in Generations had a few good alternate paths in 3D, but it was one level and the 3D sections weren't very lengthy. Unleashed also did the same thing, but I feel it emphasized the obstacle course part of the level design. So while I don't think they'll go back to boost gameplay like Generations, I also don't feel they'll make a true 3D platformer. But hey, they had at least 3 years in development, and this won't come out until the end of 2017, so you never know. Considering Sonic games are rarely longer than 5 hours in length, it's safe to say Sonic Team is doing something new and risky here, and I give them props for that.
     
  4. bombatheechidna

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    Colors and Generations had the best 3d platforming in any Sonic game. Generations had multiple paths for Modern Sonic and you can't even boost your way through the levels unless you're familiar with them and skilled like that.
     
  5. Chimera

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    There's also the chance that the general audience isn't exactly a core gaming demographic anyway / the series is just perpetually a meme.

    The series can be seen as "too fast," though on anything lower than 60FPS that becomes less of a taste issue and more of an actual *problem* with the game I.e. lack of information. Chances are your demo TV was shitty. There's also the fact that the viewer was only that--a VIEWER. That they didn't actually play the game so they weren't able to actually feel out the game, and only saw a game too quick to be fun.

    There's another game that involves speed and platforming to some extent, though moreso speed. It's called Super Smash Brothers Melee. Its one of the fastest paced games on the market if you have a good and accurate APM. Much like any sonic game though, people look at that series and claim its too fast for its own good, with characters who are too heavy and the controls are perhaps too responsive. Yes Melee is a "fighting" game, and it's in 2 dimensions, but based on the speed ALONE people have criticized it for its quickness, and this was BEFORE the metagame evolves to the point it did.

    It's also the gamecube's most successful title.

    I personally don't think the issue with the series is objectively that it's "too fast." It's that the speed the games allow you to go isn't accessible. The game EXPECTS you to be blazing through the game at top speed and not accounting for any alternative. Have any of you tried controlling Sonic at a slow pace reacently? it feels like SHIT.

    He has a permanent turn radius on him where you can't instantly change your direction and it ends up feeling like you're perpetually controlling a motercycle. Even people who play GTA take a break from using a motorbike every once and a while because there's limitations to being in high gear all the time. There may be a more packed in area you want to go in or maybe you want to go inside, and in close quarters the last thing you want to be doing is riding a motorcycle lest you smash into the fucking wall.

    When given the opportunity, the OPTION to increase a player's speed and get through an area, people more often than not pick that option. Going back to GTA, no one in their right mind would just walk all the way to the next mission. Not JUST because it's slow and the place is far away, but because it's just not as fun as stealing someone's car and going nuts on the highway. Plus, the game doesn't put any ridiculous punishing obstacles in your way for having a bit of breakout speed fun--there's a concequence, but not to the severity of say losing all your life or being set back a few meters-kilometers for a twitch fuckup. The most that happens is you lose SOME health and the cops start trying to come after you for public endangerment or whatever.

    That whole "punishing you for going fast thing" is honeslty something I think Egoraptor was on the nose about throughout the series' history, and its also something that vets of some games like Adventure do all the time. The level design, when you DO know what to do, is excellent for going nuts and flying across the stage, finding an opportunity to spin and jump off a ramp nearly everywhere. When you DON'T though, you're forced to take your time to observe your surroundings and make a mental map before you can actually press forward with confidence.

    In a game with bad controls, this is fucking abysmal design, because you make going fast when done right the only appealing thing. People who either prefer to take it slow or have to are rewarded with truck controls, and are in fact expected to move forward instead of find a more creative path--hell maybe even up or down. And while I said before the issue isn't the game being "too fast" and more the speed not being "accessible," the acceleration in the game is part of that as well. I think this is what people refer to most of the time when it comes to the game: not the speed, but the acceleration, the instant 0-60 nature of the game, na dthe design around that being the only method of speed.

    This is why I thought on paper Lost World was a brilliant idea, because in theory you would have solid controls for lower speed gameplay and nautrally be able to accelerate forward at a comfortable pace, or hit that 3rd gear instantly if you WANT to go full force nuts. Unfortunately the game suffered from, among many issues, using digital input instead of taking advantage of the control stick's analog sensitivity, having too wide a divide between low and high speed movement to thenpoint where NOT running was almost crippling you, and lacking a principle that most, if not all great 3d adventure games have: addictive movement.

    My friends told me that they loved the fuck out of the Prototype games not just because of the combat, or the crazy powers you could get, but because simply they had so much fun just MOVING through the hub world. They had fun just vaulting over things, jumping off buildings, running on top on skyscrapers, etc. It was fun for them to go nuts, and this carried over into other games that shared similar movement principles like Saints Row 4 and their power system. The principle of just moving around and not being obstructed by their environment, and in fact being able to maneuver AROUND their environment, was just fun for them.

    Now yes, those games were open world and not strictly platformer centric, or had any SET direction to them as opposed to "go forward." But they shared a common principle that the sonic series seems to fundamentally lack in 3D. It was just ENJOYABLE to move around. And that wasnt even the marketed point of those games! GTA and SR4 are games where your objective is to fuck shit up, and Prototype is more "seak and destroy." However, the method of doing so is very enjoyable, which is more than what most Sonic games can say for themselves. I know what most of you on this forum think, that control in Generations is just fine, that SA is really fun, but I can tell you an outsider who doesnt know dick about the series and yet picks up the games nowadays wouldn't exactly call movement in the game "fun."

    I thought this was the direction Lost World was going to go, just at a faster pace. I'd argue Lost World is actually a SLOWER pace than any of the aformentioned games, because its "parkour" has you wait for an entire prep animation and cuts your momentum before you can act again. In Prototype, you just fucking do it. The prep animations are part of the movement.


    My tldr point is this: The Sonic series markets itself on its high speed exclusively. Other games have done things Sonic's tried to do at a marginally slower pace with better results and they barely, or never, mention the speed aspect--its often something discovered by the player. If more focus was put on the games' controls making ways to GET to that speed fun, and keep it fun when you're there, then people probably wouldn't be calling the game "too fast" as much.

    Also, there's something to be said when I can still have fun replaying S3 yet replaying generations becomes robotic and unexciting. And Generations is the FASTER GAME.
     
  6. Although I really liked generations it was far too complicated/inaccessible for allot of casual gamers who loved Sonic in the 16bit days, but got put off by the complexity of later titles.

    I played Generations to a few of my friends and they where like 'what the fuck it's playing itself' and 'too many buttons to press!' (talking about mid air stunts, slides here).

    It's easy to laugh this off but it does put casual gamers off and one of the main reasons Sonic appealed to such a wide audience in the first place was it's simplicity.

    Sonic Team need to nail this in the new game, imo.
     
  7. Rosie

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    I'm amazed there can be this much discussion when really the only thing that's been revealed is "also Classic Sonic appears in it".

    I think I'll wait until some gameplay before forming any judgements on the game itself. Like with the reveal for Generations, this teaser might not even appear in the final game at all.

    When's the next event where they might show more? Possible they might have a proper trailer at Tokyo Game Show in September?
     
  8. MykonosFan

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    Personally I think we only got this trailer as a "yeah Sonic Team is taking a lot longer this time, so here's something to show we're not dead" play. The usual marketing cycle for a mainline title is to announce in April/May, then release in October/November. With this hitting Holiday '17, we have a much longer wait this go round and I really think they'll largely be quiet about this until early next year. Not only to help give Mania the spotlight, but also so people don't get sick of hearing about Sonic '17, which is a definite risk publishers take when a game is announced very early. I'm anxious to hear more too, but don't think we're going to for quite a while.
     
  9. bombatheechidna

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    Agreed. They somehow need to allow more user control in the boost instead of it feeling like you're riding a fast roller coaster that you can't control. The classics nailed the controls but it is easier to do that when the setting is 2d and the speed is momentum based. I don't want them to abandon it but they should fix it where the controls feel tighter. If they can't do that then they should consider a momentum based boost similar to Sonic Advance 2. That would probably work well in a 3d game. It would also leave the boost button free for something like spin-dash.

    I don't agree that Modern's game play is too complicated. His game play is easier than Classic's because of the boost and homing attack.
     
  10. Hez

    Hez

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    I'm confused.....Classic Sonic is bad now, and Modern Sonic is good?
     
  11. TheKazeblade

    TheKazeblade

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    Not bad, just redundant. Classic gets his own game now, so why have him here when he'll likely maneuver inferiorly to mania?

    We haven't had a pure modern game since Colors in the boost formula, and Generations refined it significantly since then. I want to see them fully immerse us in modern gameplay so no one can claim the series' only value is in nostalgia.
     
  12. Ravenfreak

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    People are just confused as to why they have classic in this title when Sonic Mania is basically a new Sonic game that ties in with the old classic Sonic that most of us here grew up with. I think people are just upset to see Classic in both main series games that are coming out next year and they wish to see other characters show up again like Shadow, Rouge, etc. instead of Classic Sonic. I can see it from their point of view, even if I personally like the classics more than some recent games. (But I doubt Sega is going to forget about Sonic's friends...) All this over a teaser trailer that shows no game play too... I'm more hyped for Mania than this, but I'm looking forward to what Sega has in store for us with this game too.
     
  13. Atendega

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    Pretty much exactly this. I don't want them treated as separate characters. One is simply a younger version of the other. They showed up together in Generations because Eggman fucked up time. At the end, he returned to his own time. Why has he come back? How has he come back?

    When they showed off Mania, I was honestly excited. With a separate game to satiate classic Sonic fans, Sonic Team would be free to stop nostalgia-pandering and push the brand forward. But it looks like they aren't.

    I eagerly await some gameplay footage, because if I at least knew what the game actually played like, maybe this wouldn't piss me off so much. :argh:
     
  14. bombatheechidna

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    They don't know what they want. I think it's because Classic Sonic is leaving his print everywhere and he's not what some people grew up with. To them this might mean that Modern Sonic is fading away but that's clearly not the case. We all like Classic Sonic so don't ruin it for the people who are enjoying him. How many games has Modern Sonic had? He's not going anywhere. They'll calm down and get over it if Sega reveals other playable characters.
     
  15. TheKazeblade

    TheKazeblade

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    That's what it boils down to for me as well. At LEAST 3 years of development time, one year of which was merciless teasing, and all we got was a pre-rendered teaser trailer. Not even a name.

    Unless they show gameplay fairly soon, that disappointment in conjunction with the feeling of retreading Generations makes me a little frustrated.
     
  16. minichapman

    minichapman

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    Just a weird thought but if SEGA had (for some bizarre reason) had shown the Sonic 2017 trailer first and THEN revealed Mania, would everyone's initial reaction be different? Would the sense of redundancy maybe happen later?

    The way it seems is that folks may have been more joyed to have seen Classic appear again and then the final announcement comes up and BAM. New 2D sonic game too?!

    I don't know. This is why I barely post at the risk of sounding like a moron.
     
  17. Makes sense, the Mania reveal was a tough act to follow
     
  18. LowSeasCaroz

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    Seeing how the Mania trailer has significantly more views on youtube, and this is the game that people keep talking about... yeah, I think showing a vague teaser for a game that will be released in late 2017 BEFORE a gameplay-filled trailer, for a game that will come out earlier next year, might have made people more excited for Project 2017, and the surprise about Mania would have been bigger after the usual CG trailer that we've had for years now.
    But then you have to remember that at the end of the stream, many people had already stopped watching (for obvious reasons... *cough*StuffedNachos*cough*Hellokitty*cough*BZZZZZZ*cough*... and don't forget that the stream ended at 6AM here in Europe). And Sega of America probably wanted to give THEIR game more attention.
     
  19. bombatheechidna

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    After all the complaining I've seen with no game play, this game might be screwed already. All the expectations people are setting for this game are different. I can't see Sega fulfilling all of these different needs. I'm confused I thought everyone liked Generations and Classic Sonic but apparently not. That shows how much I know.
     
  20. Chimera

    Chimera

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    Actually I think its more people see this as a cashbrag gimmick that SEGA's employing as a cheap way to keep people invested, as opposed to doing this because they have a good solid plan.

    At least that's my cynical takeway from all this.