Sonic Mania Plus (Consoles Physical; PC Digital) - Non-Leaks Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Chris Highwind, Mar 16, 2018.

  1. SuccinctAndPunchy

    SuccinctAndPunchy

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    Perpetually trying to find more games to speedrun.
    So this probably isn't going to be favorably received but posting it here is more productive than bitching on Twitter, so here goes nothing. At least here it might get read by someone relevant. I know the patch is in a super early state and there's months to release but frankly the early sneak peek that has been seen is...extremely troubling?

    tl;dr the leaked patch heavily breaks the game for speedrunning in a fashion that comes across as like, almost borderline spiteful? Normal players have basically no reason to care about any of this stuff either way, but I'm throwing it out there.

    So basically, a lot of skips that were found by and exclusively used by speedrunners have been fixed in fairly slapdash ways that largely just makes it come across as pointedly directed at runners. Pretty much all of the skips that were fixed took months of runner effort of deliberately deconstructing the systems and mechanics of the game in order to produce the result and are so incredibly specific that there's zero odds of any normal player doing it by chance. That's why they took months to find in the first place.

    I can't really think of a way to do express this other than to just list the changes so here we go:

    Mirage Saloon 2 Skip with Solo Tails: https://youtu.be/f4SVIUZKVjY?t=33m18s

    This was fixed by just slapping a wall above the level. This is really weird because this skip is completely impossible to do if you're not trying to do it. You have to be Super Tails AND get a really good jump off one specific ramp that breaks after use so you don't get a second go at it AND mash fly in such a way as to maintain optimal height and momentum. There is absolutely no way anyone hits that by accident, it's way too specific and requires you to be way too good, you absolutely have to be trying to hit this. It was already attempted to made impossible by an invisible wall so now the invisible wall has been made higher? It's already so hard to hit that nobody does it by accident, was that necessary?

    Oil Ocean 2 Skip With Solo Tails: https://youtu.be/f4SVIUZKVjY?t=35m45s

    Again, same principle, only you don't need to be Super it just helps. You have to get an incredibly specific jump off one quarter pipe, land on top of the level, jump off the top and bounce off an invisible speed shoes box, such that the momentum you gain from the bounce launches you high into the air as you gain the Speed Shoes so you can then fly over the stage. This skip is ridiculously hard to do even if you know what you're doing, the odds of any normal player hitting this on their own isn't just cosmically unlikely, it's basically flat zero. It also involves such creative usage of the physics that I cannot really understand why this was despised enough to warrant wholesale removal. Removed in the same way too, with a pointed invisible wall increase.

    There's a pretty weird timeline going on with Mirage Saloon 2 specifically where more and more invisible walls keep getting added and the jump kept getting progressively more and more precise as players figured out how to jump better and clear the wall. This becomes even more hilarious because the invisible walls that were added actually introduced a softlock into the game because the walls don't converge properly so if you managed to land inbetween them, you were just stuck with no way out. This attempt at fixing a skip added a softlock. You'd think this is the point where it's not worth doing anything about.

    Now it's just flat out impossible. This just feels super strange to me since there's basically no way anyone hit that by accident in the first place. There's a point where this stops being like, preventing super weird edge-case scenarios for the normal end-user and becomes fairly pointed at an extremely specific niche of players. There's just no benefit to this.

    Metallic Madness 1 Boss Skip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jCcSmBgyks

    Fixed by making the ceiling higher.

    In order to do this one you have to bait Tails into a specific position, land on the see-saw at a specific height and then get hit at the highest point possible to land on top of the background rather than in it and then spindash off a specific pixel in order to not lock the camera by the boss.

    This one hurts me the most because this one is new. It was discovered in like, late January? It hasn't even been around for that long. I know devs interact in the speedrun chat and this is a pretty spicy way to completely put anyone off from ever sharing anything cool and new that they might find for the next few months since I don't really see how else this could've been found out about. Again, completely impossible to do by accident. It's ridiculously hard to pull off. The last attempt at fixing a different method for this skip just crashed the game instead when performed. I don't think fixing skips by making it crash the game is a good middle ground, it's not even two steps forward one step back it's just kind of one step back.

    Of all the fixes, this one comes across as the most laser-targeted because it's a brand new strat, it's been fixed in a way that fixes absolutely nothing other than preventing the skip from working and could likely only have been found from trawling the speedrun community spaces. Which is a pretty cool way to payback the speedrun community for welcoming you into their space and especially kind of upsets me because I'm the one who invited y'all in in the first place? I tried to get a healthy relationship going between the hardcore players and the devs going with that and the fact that this is what it culminated is just kind of depressing. This is going to sound rude, but seriously, dick move.

    This is inevitably going to sound incredibly overdramatic but like, I tried to establish that relationship between the base on the basis of some degree of trust but honestly I think everyone wishes I hadn't.

    Titanic Monarch Room 3 Clip

    This was found last month. Why are you patching stuff it took experienced players eight months of trying to break the game to find. Leave this shit be holy crap. also no chance of being done by accident blahblahblah

    We've been through this one before with the last round of patches that fixed a bunch of stuff that runners found not even weeks before the patch went live. Most of them just quit playing in sheer annoyance and I hardly blame them? Mania's active playercount on speedrun.com has done nothing but cut sharply every time a patch has dropped and patching recent new exciting discoveries before they even have time to bloom in a run is part of the reason.

    Studiopolis 2 Glitch

    This is the only one I can understand. Hitting a spring funny makes you go through walls. It's pretty easy to cause by accident and looks fairly goofy. Fair enough.

    Press garden miniboss

    Unable to be hit until its fully summoned, player control is locked once the player touches the floor and until it breaks a box.

    Why? Was this even a glitch? Doing this took effort and skill to sneak in the tiny gap and made the fight more dynamic instead of forcing the player to wait it out for the fight to start "properly". This is lame! This doesn't fix anything anyone wanted fixing and just makes the fight less interesting.

    Titanic Monarch 2 Boss

    This is the most inexplicable change, previously if you were good enough to get in a lot of hits as fast as possible, you could take off one tentacle every time the boss was vulnerable and skip being sent to the Heavy rooms. Doing this made the fight more controllable at the player's pace and rewarded players for being able to sneak hits in quickly with faster times. This is like, good?

    You can't do that now, it's been deliberately changed such that it's impossible to skip phases, forcing you into the Heavy rooms where you are forced to do nothing but wait until you can resume playing the game. See, here's the thing with waiting around in boss fights like this (and MM1, actually) which is that once you are at the skill level required to not die consistently which doesn't take long for a speedrunner, moments of waiting like this and forcing the player to play the game at the game's pace becomes very boring to speedrunners. Given the previous cycle skipping strat was difficult to execute and took skill to do, I don't see who this was harming. I don't even think anyone thought this was a glitch.

    Fixed Slopejumping

    Previously, if you repeatedly jumped while going down a slope as either Sonic or Knuckles (doesn't work with Tails he's too smol) you'd instantly reattach to the slope but gain speed, players used this everywhere they could to gain a little bit of extra speed. This is good! It adds depth to the movement! Every curve becomes a potential to save frames. It keeps a speedgame going through the ages if you have these tiny mechanical quirks like this.

    So naturally, it was removed. Now, this could be an accident, since it's a result of Sonic/Knux hitboxes being so large they intercept the slope and reattach instantly, so maybe this was a knock-on effect of a more general change. I can believe that, but I still make the case that removing it entirely is extremely ill-advised because it's a genuinely good and fun mechanic to work with in runs and also will render every single previously uploaded gameplay video and level speedrun online completely unbeatable for two entire characters because there's no longer anyway to accrue the speed necessary. I pray this is just a simple accident since the patch is unfinished.

    and there may be more these are just the ones I know about

    All of these useful things that players liked enough or put time and effort into using for their own purposes were removed. While things like bosses dictated entirely by luck (Titanic Monarch 1, Studiopolis 2) or a number of weird terrain softlocks are largely untouched.

    Anyone who wants to run this game now is going to be faced with the weird choice of either just putting up with removed techniques (which is going to cause existing runners to lose interest and cut the already kind of dwindling playerbase down further) or downpatch the game which is sort of a pain in the ass and a missed opportunity given what the patch adds to the game. It can also only be done on the PC version of the game which basically knocks anyone with a console out of the picture unless they permanently stay offline.


    Absolutely none of these fixes (besides Studiopolis 2 maybe?) fixed anything that 99% of your players give a single toss about. They all seem incredibly laser targeted at speedrunners and specifically people trying to uncover new techniques and glitches which is completely off-putting and I've never seen a patch with a more negative reception internal to the community. I can't find a single person who thinks this is a good thing for the run.

    It's even sadder since adding things like free ability to skip cutscenes is fantastic since skipping cutscenes previously required a 2-frame glitch to execute and was extremely asinine and took focus away from the core platforming in the run. That's a really good addition and could definitely be a huge shot in the arm for the game's speed scene if it didn't come bundled in with a bunch of completely pointless "fixes" that do not fix anything anyone wanted fixed. It's snatching defeat from the jaws of victory since Mania had all the potential in the world to be a really hugely popular enduring speedrun and it's kind of just, quietly declined and landed on a middle-tier of popularity instead. That's still pretty good innings in the grand scheme of things but severe mishandling like this has kept it from reaching the peak it could have. All of the actual new content added is good? Just every attempt at a "fix" is really bad.

    And that's kind of it really, the devs don't have to pay any attention to me or this or anything and they'd still have made and be making a critically/commercially successful Sonic game. Runners are a niche community, in the grand scheme of things, we're not important. I get that. I also get that at the end of the day, it's their game, they can do whatever they like with it. That is also totally true but is basically orthogonal to the point. But the way they've been handled benefits basically nobody. No normal player will even notice any of the things I just listed And nobody really has any idea why this has happened? Which is leading to all sorts of conspiracy theories of varying levels of stupidity. Did SEGA see the GDQ run and demand the skips be fixed? Is it all just a crazy series of coincidences? Do you guys just find the skips aesthetically unpleasing? Is it just misguided perfectionism? Do you guys just genuinely dislike us?

    i don't have a closing line and this post is badly constructed and lacks flow but yeah basically this is extremely disappointing and i wanted to put the community sentiment out there. Thanks for indulging my bullshit.

    P.S if it turns out these are all just somehow accidental because the leaked patch is unfinished I'm going to look like the biggest jackass in the goddamn world but I kinda doubt it given how precise it is
     
  2. SuperSnoopy

    SuperSnoopy

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    They... they fixed the slope jumping glitch ? This sucks so much, it was incredibly fun and easy to use....
    I've become so used to it that I started to try it on other games by accident :p

    This blows. I now it sounds dumb, but I'm kinda less hyped for the update because of it. I hope someone will be able to restore that with a mod or something.
    EDIT:Great, they also changed the way the final boss work ? It was so rewarding figuring out how to avoid the Heavies, but now you can't do it anymore ? Was this even a glitch ?
     
  3. The game could certainly have been designed better for speedrunning (especially the bosses, most of which aren't well designed for replayability regardless of whether or not you're a speedrunner) but the key word here is designed. I will never understand the attachment speedrunners have to their skips, I'd think they'd be interested in running the game to... actually play the game. One thing you all need to keep in mind is that the game has a built-in Time Attack mode with leaderboards, and they'll want those to not be flooded with people using glitches. Now that Plus/1.04 adds the ability to view replays in Time Attack, maybe they'll actually make an effort to keep the leaderboards authentic.

    Banned.
     
  4. Laughingcow

    Laughingcow

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    From a developer standpoint, these are glitches/exploits thus are naturally patched out when found. You can argue that they do no harm but the simple answer to that is "you weren't meant to fucking do that".

    Now let's see you speedrun the game without cheating.
     
  5. SuperSnoopy

    SuperSnoopy

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    The « Using glitches in a speedrun is cheating » discution is something that's been talked about time and time again, and no one seems to agree with each other on the subject. Let's not go there.
     
  6. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    Right. If anything it levels the playing field. Now it's are you good at the game instead of are you good at breaking it.

    Besides they did some positive changes in that aspect. Apparently you can skip cutscenes now.
     
  7. Fred

    Fred

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    This is related to what we were talking about:

    Specifically, right as the fight starts, the boss breaks one of its saws on the tall stack of crates, thereby communicating how to expose its weak spot.

    I guess it was possible to miss this hint by wandering off to the right side of the room, so it was also unceremoniously turned into a cutscene.

    I feel for you regarding all your other points, SuccintAndPunchy, but you lost me at this one:

    What? How is that possibly good? If I press the jump button, I expect my character to jump. That's a bug if I ever saw one, and it annoyed me to no end playing the game casually, especially because it isn't present in any of the classic games or their Retro Engine remakes.

    You either do or you don't.

    It's not cheating if you're just running the code that's in the game. Also: rude.
     
  8. D.A. Garden

    D.A. Garden

    & Knuckles Member
    I appreciate people keeping things in spoiler tags. I want to keep things hidden as much as possible before the official release, and so far, only 2 minor things have slipped through the net, so a general thanks to you all.

    That being said, after reading what I have, are people seriously complaining about bug fixes being implemented into the game? I mean, that seems completely backwards to me. I'm more grateful that they have taken the time to fix these issues in order to make the game a more solid experience. I look forward to how extensive the bug fixes are, and to what extent the developers have gone to in order to fix some really silly errors that I'm surprised slipped through the net previously.

    Anyway, I'm really looking forward to Sonic Mania Plus. I've pre-ordered it for the 3 consoles (being the collector I am. Also, why not support this the best way I can with my money?), and I can't wait for another excuse to play through one of the best Sonic games since 1994. Again.
     
  9. XCubed

    XCubed

    Will Someday Own a Rent-A-Center Oldbie
    All of this. Now it can be done as originally designed. I had to suffer through that Titanic Monarch Act 2 trick attempt while watching the live stream leak. He figured out in 2 seconds that it was patched, but still spent 10 minutes with it! I was screaming for him to move on because my lunch was almost over!
     
  10. TheOcelot

    TheOcelot

    Scooty Puff Jr sucks! Member
    I really appreciate the changes made in the new 1.04 version. Of course there's still some more things they need to iron-out, but overall it's a big improvement.

    It's awesome that this update for Sonic Mania will be rolled out across the platforms for free probably just before Sonic Mania Plus releases. So even if some people don't want to buy Mania Plus they will still get the Mania update for free with all the improvements.

    One thing this update has shown is how incomplete the original release was. Clearly the development time was not sufficient to meet the release window in August 2017 without having to cut a shit-ton of content, which is such a shame. God-forbid what state Mania would have been in if they had been forced to release the game in the original Spring release window last year, instead of delaying for three months. I'm just so happy with Mania's success which has allowed the opportunity for Team Mania to add the cut-content for Mania and the new content for Mania Plus.
     
  11. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    Thing is, Sonic is not supposed to be hitting projectiles directly, but only the badniks/bosses that shoot them (and not even all of them, as the explosive bombs in Star Light Zone proved).

    Which just made me think that an easy fix would be to... add a pair of googly eyes to it, instead. =|

    By the way, I hope they remove the flash that occurs when the Heavy Gunner grabs the missile launcher. It just feels like a weird shortcut to avoid having to animate the grab (like those that make the ending look worse than it should).
     
  12. Spanner

    Spanner

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    I mentioned this before in this thread but didn't make a video to show what I thought would be good if this was done...
     
  13. Laughingcow

    Laughingcow

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    And that is why I don't respect speedrunning.
     
  14. kyasarintsu

    kyasarintsu

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    I'm pretty disappointed that so many skips haven't been patched. I swear, in 90% of cases it's actually as simple as just adding more invisible collision blocks to prevent players from getting over parts of the map.
    There better be a leaderboard reset.
     
  15. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    I'm almost positive that's going to be the case

    In addition to bug fixes and skip fixes there seem to be some new paths here and there. Also with the addition of Mighty and Ray now would be the perfect time to clean slate the leaderboards, particularly because they're already hacked to shit

    Hopefully they took a good look at DSS's glitch videos and sought out fixes to those.
     
  16. Overlord

    Overlord

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    Oh my god I can't go away for 3 days without something happening, can I?

    Edited the thread title to include a spoiler warning.

    Back on topic: People complaining about bugs being patched simply for the sake of being able to exploit them for speedrunning are just whining because the game's problems are being fixed. Find new bugs to exploit, the rest of us would much rather have a more solid game.
     
  17. rata

    rata

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    Pretty much the same happen in an incremental game, Kittens Game, where there was a bug that let you have infinite resources insted of having a storage cap for them. When the beta with that bug fix apeared, the whine storm and tears waves flooded the subreddit.

    Just cheaters wanting to feel better while doing things wrong instead of just not doing it in first place.
     
  18. Willie

    Willie

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    Exploits can be fun, but I'd much rather see bugs patched out. I prefer not needing to break a game's engine just to be competitive at speedrunning it.
     
  19. Roxie Mika

    Roxie Mika

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    Yelling "cheater cheater pumpkin eater" at speedrunners is amusing to watch but ultimately unhelpful. Skips that are there and require genuine skill rather than luck to use are gonna get used. It's not cheating when the tech is accessible to all who choose to learn it.

    That said, games get patched and skips get removed. Speedrunning is a show of skill, and adapting to reasonable amounts of change is a skill too. IMO, the skips that involve getting an abnormally high jump/boost are reasonable to see patched, because you're explicitly leaving the game area, and usually using that to completely fly over sections of and/or the entirety of a level. It's more than just a little ridiculous, and it's not a particularly interesting to watch in a speedrul either. There's a reason you usually don't see people crowding around to watch, say, a 100% run of Super Mario World where the player cape-flies over every outdoor level in the game, compared to a run that features strong movement tech.
    This, again, isn't to say I consider it cheating in any way, just that I find it uninteresting to watch in speedrunning streams/videos.

    The one thing that does bug me is the fact that the patch seems to have intentionally made one tedious boss even more tedious.
    Phantom Egg was already kind of a plodding boss, even casually. Making it so that the arms break off from the top first means you have to sit around waiting a long time to defeat it... I guess it's so that you have to see all the Phantom Heavies before defeating the boss, but it's so... I dunno, asinine. It doesn't affect anyone but casual players and full-game speedrunners since there's no boss attack mode, and it seems almost spitefully pointed towards speedrunners in particular. It adds to the already considerable tedium of Titanic Monarch Zone as a whole.
    Which, speaking of that zone...
    I gotta be real, I'm not too into it. It's way too intense for a scene like that. It definitely feels as though it's missing something with just the thunder sound effects though.
    Maybe some kind of ominous ambient wind sound to match the storm seemingly raging around the Monarch. Or a short arrangement of Ruby Illusions as a refrain for that scene. The song itself as it is is just too much though, imo.
     
  20. Fadaway

    Fadaway

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    I love you all. A suggestion: monologues aren't needed right now. My opinion entirely.