Sonic 3 Complete

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by Tiddles, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. Effexor

    Effexor

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    I forget if hthis was mentiond or not, but are you planning on changing item layouts to how they were in Sonic 3 alone (for example, the spring firing you back at the wall in Hydrocity Act 2 (S3) as opposed to a 1-up (S3K))?
     
  2. nineko

    nineko

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    <!--quoteo(post=411088:date=Feb 16 2010, 04:18 AM:name=Effexor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Effexor @ Feb 16 2010, 04:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=411088">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I forget if hthis was mentiond or not, but are you planning on changing item layouts to how they were in Sonic 3 alone (for example, the spring firing you back at the wall in Hydrocity Act 2 (S3) as opposed to a 1-up (S3K))?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This was suggested at least once, iirc:<!--quoteo(post=390722:date=Dec 31 2009, 11:08 PM:name=SOTI)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SOTI @ Dec 31 2009, 11:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=390722">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dunno if somebody's mentioned this, but in LBZ Act 2 a few monitors were different in Sonic 3. I say it's worth implementing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    edit: also<!--quoteo(post=398133:date=Jan 20 2010, 02:33 PM:name=MastaSys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MastaSys @ Jan 20 2010, 02:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=398133">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also an suggestion (only if you don't mind of course).
    Could you please make the levels like they were in Sonic 3, like the Launch Base, I always found it far more easy in Sonic 3 & Knuckles (maybe because it isn't the final zone there...)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--quoteo(post=398136:date=Jan 20 2010, 02:38 PM:name=djdocsonic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djdocsonic @ Jan 20 2010, 02:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=398136">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What differences are there between Sonic 3 and S3&K Launch Base Zone other than the Fact if you glitch into Knuckles Boss room with the twin Hammers nothing happens in S3? Am I being Niave?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--quoteo(post=398140:date=Jan 20 2010, 02:55 PM:name=MastaSys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MastaSys @ Jan 20 2010, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=398140">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There were more obstacles, like Dr. "Eggman" Robotnik's monitors, more spikes and in those rotative platforms there were more of those ball and 4-spikes Badniks.
    That made overall the zone more harder... not that matters now since my gaming skills now are better to those I had as a child, but still it's nice to have the difficult of the Sonic 3 version since after all this is an "Sonic 3 Complete".

    And while I posting it here...
    And I also remember the start of Act 2 of Hydrocity the item placement were different on the part of the smashing wall.

    There must be more relevant differences, but I really can't remember more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--quoteo(post=399590:date=Jan 23 2010, 09:10 PM:name=Tiddles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiddles @ Jan 23 2010, 09:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=399590">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm still undecided on whether to do anything with this - as you say, it was likely done to even out the difficulty, but I do miss some of the Sonic 3 layouts (there's this one lightning shield in Launch Base 1 that got changed to invincibility that always irks me... IMO that actually makes the level harder, provided you can keep the shield past where the invincibility would run out.) It's complicated slightly, because just pointing at the object layouts from Sonic 3 itself is likely to lead to a devastatingly incomplete Knuckles game, since, having explored those areas in Sonic 3, the bosses are pretty much completely missing, plus probably various other set pieces.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
     
  3. E-122-Psi

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    I agree Tails needs some sort of compensation. Knuckles at least has a lower jump and harder levels, Tails is basically Sonic with an extra move. Super Tails' flickie were irritating at some points anyway *cough*Sandopolis mini boss*cough*

    <!--quoteo(post=409435:date=Feb 12 2010, 11:46 AM:name=jackelbeaver)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jackelbeaver @ Feb 12 2010, 11:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=409435">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's an idea: (might be a bad idea) Is it possible to like...make a tails solo game or a knuckles game play different tracks for levels (the pc tracks) while say, the sonic game retains it's music? (Dunno if it'd be even possible to import said music...) would be an interesting way to add flavah to playing as tails or something of the sort. (afterall his personality is different than sonic's and his game is a little less dynamic, so it might be kinda cool if he had "unique" themes)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    One idea I've liked is getting a good music programmer to remake the music extentions from Howard Drossin's official OST:

    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHVZQD8PHFc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHVZQD8PHFc</a>
    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRws4Df2TV8&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRws4Df2TV8...feature=related</a>
    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yua4Mbvh7Ak" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yua4Mbvh7Ak</a>

    As Aqua said however this may be overstepping the line for this hack, it's a nice concept I'd like to suggest for a later project anyway though.
     
  4. Ell678

    Ell678

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    <!--quoteo(post=401323:date=Jan 27 2010, 08:09 PM:name=Tiddles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiddles @ Jan 27 2010, 08:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=401323">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=400958:date=:name=RGamer2009)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RGamer2009) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=400958">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Neverending List of Doomâ„¢<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Ooooo May we see this?
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well, I can't post it, since it's neverending and wouldn't fit. ;)
    But in all seriousness, it's really a collection of incoherent thoughts, some of which I've ruled out already, some of which I will probably never touch anyway... but when I feel like doing something with this, I pick something out of it and have a go.

    I don't want to post it all so as not to disappoint when some of it never happens. But as a consolation, I will post some things I've been working on recently:
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    These mostly work but I want to do a bit more tweaking before they see the light of day.

    Here's the list of stuff that should definitely be in for the next release, unless I find something very wrong:<ul><li>The normal super transformation sound effect is now used in Doomsday.</li><li>Fixed HUD shadow colour in burnt Angel Island. (Thanks to Hayate)</li><li>Fixed spring artwork occasionally not being loaded for the Gumball Bonus Stage.</li><li>Knuckles' intro cutscene now plays in Angel Island rather than S&K Mushroom Hill.</li><li>Debug only: Hyper Knuckles can now wall smash when turned hyper by a monitor.</li><li>Debug only: Tails' ring counter now falls in Doomsday</li><li>Debug only: Characters other than Sonic appear correctly in Doomsday.</li></ul>No HUD palette changes in AIZ1 at this point due to the rock colour issue. I've changed it over in AIZ2 because I didn't find anything that used the HUD shadow colour there. And the super transformation sound effect really sounds fine with the Doomsday music tempo fixed at the start, so I'll have that back in by default.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I came. I like that you are going to change the Knuckles cutscene. It doesn't really make sense for it to happen where it is...then for him to travel back to AIZ just to eventually end back at MHZ.
     
  5. Diablohead

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    Just played LBZ act 2 to see the boss adjustments for sonic and I like it, it is much more epic keeping in the s3 final boss fight and then not stopping the music as the death egg falls again, a shame sega did not do that themselves with the s&k add on.
     
  6. Chaos Knux

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    <!--quoteo(post=418697:date=Mar 1 2010, 10:08 AM:name=Ell678)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ell678 @ Mar 1 2010, 10:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=418697">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I came. I like that you are going to change the Knuckles cutscene. It doesn't really make sense for it to happen where it is...then for him to travel back to AIZ just to eventually end back at MHZ.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I still think it makes perfect sense to have Knux be tripping MHZ's shrooms before getting KO'd by the bomb, then dream both S2K and his S3K story. :colbert:
     
  7. McAleeCh

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    <!--quoteo(post=401323:date=Jan 27 2010, 08:09 PM:name=Tiddles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiddles @ Jan 27 2010, 08:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=401323">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[​IMG]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Looking nice there. Just one incredibly picky minor niggle, though - shouldn't the pattern load cues be adjusted to load the art for Flickies and Chickens, rather than Chickens and Squirrels? This way, the small animals in the cutscene match the small animals that are actually in AIZ, just as they matched MHZ's small animals in the original version of the cutscene. = )

    ...Hey, I did warn you it was incredibly picky. ; P
     
  8. Kurosan

    Kurosan

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    <!--quoteo(post=419718:date=Mar 3 2010, 10:24 AM:name=McAleeCh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (McAleeCh @ Mar 3 2010, 10:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=419718">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=401323:date=Jan 27 2010, 08:09 PM:name=Tiddles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiddles @ Jan 27 2010, 08:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=401323">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[​IMG]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Looking nice there. Just one incredibly picky minor niggle, though - shouldn't the pattern load cues be adjusted to load the art for Flickies and Chickens, rather than Chickens and Squirrels? This way, the small animals in the cutscene match the small animals that are actually in AIZ, just as they matched MHZ's small animals in the original version of the cutscene. = )

    ...Hey, I did warn you it was incredibly picky. ; P
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Also, would it be possible to either reposition where in AIZ the cutscene takes place or at least adding a palmtree or something behind Knuckles? It seems kind of weird that he would hold that position without resting against something.
     
  9. Can I make a suggestion? I think the reason why Super Sonic was triggered at 50 rings was to prevent false triggering by double jumping and to preserve the Super Sonic state for longer than it would if you had, say, 30 rings.

    If you give the player the ability to cancel their super form at any time, I don't see why you couldn't remove the 50 ring limit and let the player choose when they transform. That way their ring consumption is completely at their discretion.

    As an example: both Sonic 3 launch base boss takes forever and a day to get to. Being Super during this time period is a complete waste of rings and there's no guarantee cancelling your super form to conserve those rings won't leave you a bit short to turn Super again when the boss finally does appear.
     
  10. Fred

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    The reason why you had to collect 50 rings is so it wouldn't be the equivalent of pulling down the console and typing in "god".

    I mean, honestly, Super Sonic is already such a game breaker, isn't the game easy enough for you?
     
  11. No I totally agree. Super anything makes the game too easy.

    In that case, can't we move the goal posts for hyper anything? Make it 100 rings to make the 2nd transformation, otherwise there's no point in being able to select between super and hyper as everyone would want to be hyper. I still stand by my statement of being able to cancel out the transformations though. I hate being left short when it comes to a particularly annoying boss or long cut scene.

    I also think Hyper Sonic must be disabled after Hidden Palace knuckles fight since the Master Emerald has been stolen.
     
  12. Fred

    Fred

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    <!--quoteo(post=420149:date=Mar 4 2010, 09:06 AM:name=EnterTheHatrix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnterTheHatrix @ Mar 4 2010, 09:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=420149">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hate being left short when it comes to a particularly annoying boss or long cut scene.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Collect more rings. :v:
     
  13. LordOfSquad

    LordOfSquad

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    making cool music no one gives a shit about
    <!--quoteo(post=420182:date=Mar 4 2010, 04:08 AM:name=Neo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Neo @ Mar 4 2010, 04:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=420182">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=420149:date=Mar 4 2010, 09:06 AM:name=EnterTheHatrix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnterTheHatrix @ Mar 4 2010, 09:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=420149">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hate being left short when it comes to a particularly annoying boss or long cut scene.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Collect more rings. :v:
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The ability to transform down is already in the current build.
     
  14. <!--quoteo(post=420209:date=Mar 4 2010, 01:32 PM:name=LordOfSquad)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LordOfSquad @ Mar 4 2010, 01:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=420209">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=420182:date=Mar 4 2010, 04:08 AM:name=Neo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Neo @ Mar 4 2010, 04:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=420182">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=420149:date=Mar 4 2010, 09:06 AM:name=EnterTheHatrix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnterTheHatrix @ Mar 4 2010, 09:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=420149">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hate being left short when it comes to a particularly annoying boss or long cut scene.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Collect more rings. :v:
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The ability to transform down is already in the current build.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about after transforming back to normal whoever having insufficient rings to turn back in to super / hyper whoever
     
  15. LordOfSquad

    LordOfSquad

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    <!--quoteo(post=420229:date=Mar 4 2010, 07:47 AM:name=EnterTheHatrix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnterTheHatrix @ Mar 4 2010, 07:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=420229">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=420209:date=Mar 4 2010, 01:32 PM:name=LordOfSquad)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LordOfSquad @ Mar 4 2010, 01:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=420209">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=420182:date=Mar 4 2010, 04:08 AM:name=Neo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Neo @ Mar 4 2010, 04:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=420182">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=420149:date=Mar 4 2010, 09:06 AM:name=EnterTheHatrix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnterTheHatrix @ Mar 4 2010, 09:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=420149">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hate being left short when it comes to a particularly annoying boss or long cut scene.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Collect more rings. :v:
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The ability to transform down is already in the current build.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about after transforming back to normal whoever having insufficient rings to turn back in to super / hyper whoever
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Isn't that the same thing?

    Or are you talking about being annoyed when you don't have enough rings to transform in the first place?
     
  16. nineko

    nineko

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    Oh, I get what he means. When the timer stops, you transform back to normal Sonic. If this happens when you have 49 rings or less, and there is another boss to fight later, you can't transform to Super/Hyper anymore. This happened to me a few times in LBZ2, as the timer stops when you defeat the first boss (in Sonic 3 & Knuckles).

    edit: and in DEZ2
     
  17. <!--quoteo(post=420235:date=Mar 4 2010, 03:11 PM:name=nineko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nineko @ Mar 4 2010, 03:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=420235">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, I get what he means. When the timer stops, you transform back to normal Sonic. If this happens when you have 49 rings or less, and there is another boss to fight later, you can't transform to Super/Hyper anymore. This happened to me a few times in LBZ2, as the timer stops when you defeat the first boss (in Sonic 3 & Knuckles).

    edit: and in DEZ2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That's exactly it. Annoying isn't it? Especially since you can't get any more rings. And if you die, you restart at the checkpoint with even less rings around you to turn super so you have to beat the bosses under your own steam, not super sonics which can be frustrating, especially at the arm boss.

    There should be some sort of level trigger which says that you HAD 50 rings, so even if you transform back to normal sonic, you can still transform back to super even with just 1 ring (however pointless that may be) Collecting extra rings sometimes isn't an option.

    The problem with transforming back though is simply that people could easily transform to avoid imminent danger and transform back to normal quickly after consuming virtually no rings.
     
  18. E-122-Psi

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    <!--quoteo(post=419718:date=Mar 3 2010, 12:24 PM:name=McAleeCh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (McAleeCh @ Mar 3 2010, 12:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=419718">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=401323:date=Jan 27 2010, 08:09 PM:name=Tiddles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiddles @ Jan 27 2010, 08:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=401323">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[​IMG]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Looking nice there. Just one incredibly picky minor niggle, though - shouldn't the pattern load cues be adjusted to load the art for Flickies and Chickens, rather than Chickens and Squirrels? This way, the small animals in the cutscene match the small animals that are actually in AIZ, just as they matched MHZ's small animals in the original version of the cutscene. = )

    ...Hey, I did warn you it was incredibly picky. ; P
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Apparently that's refined in the actual hack:

    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaK-ju5R0Hs&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaK-ju5R0Hs...feature=related</a>
     
  19. There any way you can fix Tails dying when he falls through Robotniks egg craft? Either he flies and follows it as AI or jumps in too, or just stands on the platform and then flies on screen once Sonic reaches his destination.
     
  20. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    Indeed. I don't really want to make any further changes around transformation at the moment. Personally I think it's already overpowered now that you can detransform - I won't remove that because it's a pretty popular addition, but if you detransform and end up having to do a boss normally, so much the better IMO. ;) At least now you can drop out of super manually while you still have a few rings left to protect yourself.
    That said, using another part of the bitfield that checks for whether you already have the lives for 100 and 200 ring 1ups might be a good way to do a 50 ring check, but in this case you probably also want to reset it if you get hit and lose your rings.

    Ah, you found that then. :) I was going to post a link today, but you beat me to it.

    (The astute might notice one other minor fix appearing briefly at some point during the run, that I haven't mentioned yet, but has been requested. There's a playlist for the rest of it, or as much as has been uploaded so far.)

    I was wondering if someone would call out the other issue with Knuckles leaning against nothing. It bothered me too when I was first putting it together, but in the end I was satisfied with the position I managed to put him in, such that it looks vaguely like he's leaning against the rock formation in the background. I think I did look briefly at whether I could just throw a tree in front anyway, but I think there was some reason why I couldn't easily. And putting it somewhere else is problematic due to palette (the cutscene itself manipulates one of the palette lines and the zone triggers tend to fight with it beyond the cutscene area) and due to layout (you need a long, flat bit of land, short of reimplementing Knuckles' running off to use real collision - but it also needs to have real collision anyway which is used for the bomb drop and Knuckles falling back).

    I thought I had a nice area for it a little to the left, where you could just see the leafy area Sonic goes through before meeting Knuckles, but getting that working proved to be complicated by a few things. I might have another go sometime after the next release, but I'm reasonably happy with it as it stands.

    Actually I was thinking of stopping Tails from showing up at all from that point until Mushroom Hill, like Sonic 3 alone. I was also wondering if he shouldn't stay behind for Death Egg too, a bit like Sonic 2 - otherwise, where the heck does he pull the Tornado from? Especially if you miss Doomsday. Plus he can be really annoying when you're trying to fight the Death Egg laser boss...