Sonic 3 Complete

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by Tiddles, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. <!--quoteo(post=420752:date=Mar 5 2010, 12:27 PM:name=Tiddles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiddles @ Mar 5 2010, 12:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=420752">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=420699:date=:name=EnterTheHatrix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnterTheHatrix) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=420699">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There any way you can fix Tails dying when he falls through Robotniks egg craft? Either he flies and follows it as AI or jumps in too, or just stands on the platform and then flies on screen once Sonic reaches his destination.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually I was thinking of stopping Tails from showing up at all from that point until Mushroom Hill, like Sonic 3 alone. I was also wondering if he shouldn't stay behind for Death Egg too, a bit like Sonic 2 - otherwise, where the heck does he pull the Tornado from? Especially if you miss Doomsday. Plus he can be really annoying when you're trying to fight the Death Egg laser boss...
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I agree with your points on Death Egg to a degree. The problem is that Tails will follow you when Sky Sanctuary collapses and you jump for Death Egg. If you're going to keep Tails back, then you really need to have Tails part company with Sonic before the fight with Metal Sonic. You could even have Tails in the tornado flying in the background whilst you fight Metal Sonic just to set the idea. It's not how S3K had it, but it makes more sense than how it actually played out.

    I also think for continuity, Tails should stick with Sonic at the end of Launch Base, purely because of how Mushroom Hill starts.

    Also consider disabling Hyper Sonic after Robotnik steals the Master Emerald.
     
  2. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    <!--quoteo(post=420787:date=:name=EnterTheHatrix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnterTheHatrix) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=420787">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that Tails will follow you when Sky Sanctuary collapses and you jump for Death Egg. If you're going to keep Tails back, then you really need to have Tails part company with Sonic before the fight with Metal Sonic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Indeed, if I did change it, at least the Sky Sanctuary outtro would need some twiddling. If I do make changes, I try to ensure they make some broad, notional sense at the very least. :)
    <!--quoteo(post=420787:date=:name=EnterTheHatrix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnterTheHatrix) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=420787">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also consider disabling Hyper Sonic after Robotnik steals the Master Emerald.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I have thought about this before, but if the Master Emerald being stolen prevents transformations, Doomsday makes even less sense than usual. Also, if it only prevents hyper transformation but not super (the latter would be pretty hard to explain) then getting the Super Emeralds becomes a disadvantage.
     
  3. Question, If you debug Sonic & Tails into Knuckles' Sky Sanctuary to fight Mecha Sonic, There are a few issues with Tails:

    - He falls in from nowhere.
    - He is behind the Island when he jumps. (a layer issue of sorts?)
    - He becomes unresponsive after Mecha goes Super!

    Can that be fixed too?

    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q6SNnp3jUg" target="_blank">Heres a video showing it.</a> Ignore the crappy music.

    EDIT: Ok the music is not that crappy...
     
  4. <!--quoteo(post=420865:date=Mar 5 2010, 07:01 PM:name=Tiddles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiddles @ Mar 5 2010, 07:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=420865">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=420787:date=:name=EnterTheHatrix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnterTheHatrix) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=420787">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also consider disabling Hyper Sonic after Robotnik steals the Master Emerald.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I have thought about this before, but if the Master Emerald being stolen prevents transformations, Doomsday makes even less sense than usual. Also, if it only prevents hyper transformation but not super (the latter would be pretty hard to explain) then getting the Super Emeralds becomes a disadvantage.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    You could say that Sonic's proximity to the Master Emerald gives him the ability to transform back into Super or even Hyper Sonic. Kinda like how Mecha Sonic transformed into Super Mecha by landing on it.

    In all fairness, you need some way of explaining that though without words. You could always add an additional cut scene between the end of Death Egg and Doomsday if all 7 Super Emeralds have been collected in which Robotnik snatches back the Master Emerald (or am I starting to over think this and create more work for you?)
     
  5. MastaSys

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    Why remove Tails at all? :/
    Removing features kinda loses the propose of calling it "Complete"

    If people don't want to play with Tails just play with "Sonic Only"

    But that's only my opinion.
     
  6. Covarr

    Covarr

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    <!--quoteo(post=421141:date=Mar 5 2010, 04:59 PM:name=MastaSys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MastaSys @ Mar 5 2010, 04:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=421141">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why remove Tails at all? :/
    Removing features kinda loses the propose of calling it "Complete"

    If people don't want to play with Tails just play with "Sonic Only"

    But that's only my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That's because you weren't paying attention. The idea was to remove Tails from a small portion of a game to fix a cutscene where he attempts to follow Sonic, fails, and dies. Not to remove him from the whole game.
     
  7. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    <!--quoteo(post=418685:date=Mar 1 2010, 08:47 AM:name=E-122-Psi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (E-122-Psi @ Mar 1 2010, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=418685">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree Tails needs some sort of compensation. Knuckles at least has a lower jump and harder levels, Tails is basically Sonic with an extra move.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You could just use the character stats from the competition mode.
     
  8. MastaSys

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    <!--quoteo(post=421181:date=Mar 6 2010, 03:09 AM:name=Covarr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Covarr @ Mar 6 2010, 03:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=421181">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's because you weren't paying attention. The idea was to remove Tails from a small portion of a game to fix a cutscene where he attempts to follow Sonic, fails, and dies. Not to remove him from the whole game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I was paying attention, removing Tails for the Launch Base "Game-Mid-Boss" even if I didn't like the idea, was kinda like that in Sonic 3
    But removing Tails for a whole Zone? (Death Egg) Why? Just because the Magic appearing Tornado at the end, that matters gameplay wise?

    There are a few people, (like me) that uses Sonic & Tails for cooperative game play (yeah I know that it isn't perfect but we already used to it and we make turns.) Removing him at all in some parts, it's kinda lame for the one is playing as Tails in that turn.

    And I never understand why people are so annoyed about CPU/2P Tails, when there is the option to play Sonic alone, which is what I do (And most people) when playing alone.
     
  9. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    <!--quoteo(post=420876:date=:name=RGamer2009)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RGamer2009) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=420876">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Question, If you debug Sonic & Tails into Knuckles' Sky Sanctuary to fight Mecha Sonic, There are a few issues with Tails:

    - He falls in from nowhere.
    - He is behind the Island when he jumps. (a layer issue of sorts?)
    - He becomes unresponsive after Mecha goes Super!

    Can that be fixed too?

    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q6SNnp3jUg" target="_blank">Heres a video showing it.</a> Ignore the crappy music.

    EDIT: Ok the music is not that crappy...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I did up some stuff for characters that shouldn't be in Doomsday, so I might as well have a look at SSZ2 too at some point. I don't want to spend too much time on debug-only stuff, but if it turns out to be as straightforward as the bits I did for Doomsday, there shouldn't be a problem.

    <!--quoteo(post=420982:date=:name=EnterTheHatrix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnterTheHatrix) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=420982">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could say that Sonic's proximity to the Master Emerald gives him the ability to transform back into Super or even Hyper Sonic. Kinda like how Mecha Sonic transformed into Super Mecha by landing on it.

    In all fairness, you need some way of explaining that though without words. You could always add an additional cut scene between the end of Death Egg and Doomsday if all 7 Super Emeralds have been collected in which Robotnik snatches back the Master Emerald (or am I starting to over think this and create more work for you?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Little bit, yeah. :)
    As far as I'm concerned, hyper powers are derived from "activating" the ME by collecting the SEs. It stays activated (flashing) when it's stolen, so I don't have any problem with retaining powers after that. But most importantly, I want to keep being able to mock Mecha Sonic by skipping most of his boss interludes.

    <!--quoteo(post=421252:date=:name=MastaSys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MastaSys) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=421252">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was paying attention, removing Tails for the Launch Base "Game-Mid-Boss" even if I didn't like the idea, was kinda like that in Sonic 3
    But removing Tails for a whole Zone? (Death Egg) Why? Just because the Magic appearing Tornado at the end, that matters gameplay wise?

    There are a few people, (like me) that uses Sonic & Tails for cooperative game play (yeah I know that it isn't perfect but we already used to it and we make turns.) Removing him at all in some parts, it's kinda lame for the one is playing as Tails in that turn.

    And I never understand why people are so annoyed about CPU/2P Tails, when there is the option to play Sonic alone, which is what I do (And most people) when playing alone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's a fair point - I was playing coop Sonic 2 a little while ago and it was a shame that that aspect basically ended after Metropolis. If I did do it I'd at least try to make it one of the patchable bits. But it's still only an idea at this point anyway.
     
  10. <!--quoteo(post=421265:date=Mar 6 2010, 11:42 AM:name=Tiddles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiddles @ Mar 6 2010, 11:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=421265">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=421252:date=:name=MastaSys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MastaSys) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=421252">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was paying attention, removing Tails for the Launch Base "Game-Mid-Boss" even if I didn't like the idea, was kinda like that in Sonic 3
    But removing Tails for a whole Zone? (Death Egg) Why? Just because the Magic appearing Tornado at the end, that matters gameplay wise?

    There are a few people, (like me) that uses Sonic & Tails for cooperative game play (yeah I know that it isn't perfect but we already used to it and we make turns.) Removing him at all in some parts, it's kinda lame for the one is playing as Tails in that turn.

    And I never understand why people are so annoyed about CPU/2P Tails, when there is the option to play Sonic alone, which is what I do (And most people) when playing alone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's a fair point - I was playing coop Sonic 2 a little while ago and it was a shame that that aspect basically ended after Metropolis. If I did do it I'd at least try to make it one of the patchable bits. But it's still only an idea at this point anyway.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You could always have Tails become active once Player 2 presses something, that way Co-op is an option and have him fly on screen up until Doomsday (where it was always going to be Sonic Alone) That way people who want him in Co-op can still use him.
     
  11. mdawgmike

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    Dunno if it's been mentioned already...but it works on the hardware :)! I've been playing it on my Neo Myth MD cart and everything is flawless; the saves even work. I guess I would expect it to anyways...as this hack isn't anything too crazy different. This will definitely take the place of S3&K for me.

    Oh, and I just have a couple more (poor :P) requests/suggestions:

    Regarding the 1-up and invincibility sounds
    -Keep the S3 sounds for Sonic & Tails
    -Revert to the S&K ones for Knuckles
    -Keep the S3 title screen music
    -(Megamix style)
    -Since the Knuckles game is considerably different it seems fitting
    -Just makes it feel more complete IMO

    make an IPS patch maybe? I would love you.

    Regarding the ending credit music:
    -Get someone to tidy up some of the unfitting medley transitions
    -Ex: CNZ to LBZ and LBZ to ICZ
    -The transition should probably be at a drum beat, instead of the short pause currently present
    -P.S. I know you just used a clip taken from a prototype S3 build for this one...just sayin' though
    -Again, just would be more complete if perfected
     
  12. Tiddles

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    <!--quoteo(post=424265:date=:name=mdawgmike)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mdawgmike) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=424265">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dunno if it's been mentioned already...but it works on the hardware :)! I've been playing it on my Neo Myth MD cart and everything is flawless; the saves even work. I guess I would expect it to anyways...as this hack isn't anything too crazy different. This will definitely take the place of S3&K for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yeah, I give it a run through on an MD Pro every now and again to make sure I haven't done anything silly. I haven't done so on recent test builds so I probably should. I'm glad it's provided a suitable replacement. :)

    <!--quoteo(post=424265:date=:name=mdawgmike)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mdawgmike) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=424265">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Regarding the 1-up and invincibility sounds
    -Keep the S3 sounds for Sonic & Tails
    -Revert to the S&K ones for Knuckles
    -Keep the S3 title screen music
    -(Megamix style)
    -Since the Knuckles game is considerably different it seems fitting
    -Just makes it feel more complete IMO

    make an IPS patch maybe? I would love you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->We did have a bit of discussion on more music choices earlier in the topic, and this is a bit more complicated than what's been done so far because I need more sound IDs allocated to music tracks - all the existing changes simply repoint the existing IDs to different music data. $32 is already effectively spare but I'd need one more to do both invincibility and 1up themes, and I'm using all the others now. Not that I'm ruling out, but I'm no expert on the sound driver or the Z80 as yet.

    <!--quoteo(post=424265:date=:name=mdawgmike)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mdawgmike) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=424265">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Regarding the ending credit music:
    -Get someone to tidy up some of the unfitting medley transitions
    -Ex: CNZ to LBZ and LBZ to ICZ
    -The transition should probably be at a drum beat, instead of the short pause currently present
    -P.S. I know you just used a clip taken from a prototype S3 build for this one...just sayin' though
    -Again, just would be more complete if perfected<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I agree, it'd be good to tighten it up a bit. I haven't looked into music editing at all thus far (in terms of editing within tracks rather than repointing calls to them) but I have a couple of ideas in my head as to how to improve this, though I'm no musician. It'd be nice to have the other zones represented too, though I wouldn't like to make it much longer.

    <!--quoteo(post=421506:date=:name=EnterTheHatrix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnterTheHatrix) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=421506">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could always have Tails become active once Player 2 presses something, that way Co-op is an option and have him fly on screen up until Doomsday (where it was always going to be Sonic Alone) That way people who want him in Co-op can still use him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Good idea - if I do make those changes I'll try to allow that.
     
  13. <!--quoteo(post=424608:date=Mar 13 2010, 12:52 PM:name=Tiddles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiddles @ Mar 13 2010, 12:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=424608">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=421506:date=:name=EnterTheHatrix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnterTheHatrix) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=421506">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could always have Tails become active once Player 2 presses something, that way Co-op is an option and have him fly on screen up until Doomsday (where it was always going to be Sonic Alone) That way people who want him in Co-op can still use him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Good idea - if I do make those changes I'll try to allow that.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I did a no emerald play through yesterday with Sonic and Tails. Tails caused me to die on the final boss (Egg Zone, not doomsday) 6 times because he would jump at the boss when the ground is collapsing and I'd just go straight through the emerald and die. Annoyances like this can be fixed by not having tails there. Of course, in co-op having Tails is a blessing since a real person is controlling and Tails is expendable.
     
  14. MastaSys

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    <!--quoteo(post=425820:date=Mar 15 2010, 07:46 AM:name=EnterTheHatrix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnterTheHatrix @ Mar 15 2010, 07:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=425820">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I did a no emerald play through yesterday with Sonic and Tails. Tails caused me to die on the final boss (Egg Zone, not doomsday) 6 times because he would jump at the boss when the ground is collapsing and I'd just go straight through the emerald and die. Annoyances like this can be fixed by not having tails there. Of course, in co-op having Tails is a blessing since a real person is controlling and Tails is expendable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    There is a solution for that, that Sega implemented years ago,
    Play with "Sonic Only".

    I still raise a brow, this whole thing to remove Tails because he his annoying in some parts when you already CAN avoid it easily.
    But still if this is what Tiddles will want to implement in his modification, I support the idea you gave, but still raising my brow.
     
  15. DigitalDuck

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    <!--quoteo(post=425854:date=Mar 15 2010, 11:49 AM:name=MastaSys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MastaSys @ Mar 15 2010, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=425854">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still raise a brow, this whole thing to remove Tails because he his annoying in some parts when you already CAN avoid it easily.
    But still if this is what Tiddles will want to implement in his modification, I support the idea you gave, but still raising my brow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I don't think Tails is being removed because he's annoying. I think it's because:

    [​IMG]
    Oh hey, Tails! Glad you could join me here in space!

    [​IMG]
    Oh hey, Tails! Glad you could somehow make it from the Death Egg down to the ground, safely, start up the plane, and be here in time to catch me despite the fact that we both started falling at the same time!
     
  16. Mr. Mash

    Mr. Mash

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    If you put the "Jam!" sound into CNZ I'll be forever in your debt =P
     
  17. Tiddles

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    Yeah, it really is more about the impossible ending than Tails being annoying (and Sonic 3-ification in the case of the LBZ2 boss - Tails isn't really a problem there) - otherwise I agree, just play as Sonic alone. As I say though, there'll be some way around it if it does get changed by default.
     
  18. Chaos Knux

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    <!--quoteo(post=425907:date=Mar 15 2010, 12:49 PM:name=DigitalDuck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DigitalDuck @ Mar 15 2010, 12:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=425907">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=425854:date=Mar 15 2010, 11:49 AM:name=MastaSys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MastaSys @ Mar 15 2010, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=425854">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still raise a brow, this whole thing to remove Tails because he his annoying in some parts when you already CAN avoid it easily.
    But still if this is what Tiddles will want to implement in his modification, I support the idea you gave, but still raising my brow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't think Tails is being removed because he's annoying. I think it's because:

    [​IMG]
    Oh hey, Tails! Glad you could join me here in space!

    [​IMG]
    Oh hey, Tails! Glad you could somehow make it from the Death Egg down to the ground, safely, start up the plane, and be here in time to catch me despite the fact that we both started falling at the same time!
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Remote controller + incredible range + hidden somewhere on Angel Island = Tails caught himself in the tornado first, then took manual control and caught Sonic.
     
  19. <!--quoteo(post=425953:date=Mar 15 2010, 07:21 PM:name=Tiddles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiddles @ Mar 15 2010, 07:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=425953">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, it really is more about the impossible ending than Tails being annoying (and Sonic 3-ification in the case of the LBZ2 boss - Tails isn't really a problem there) - otherwise I agree, just play as Sonic alone. As I say though, there'll be some way around it if it does get changed by default.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yeah but if we're killing 2 birds with one stone, I don't see a problem with that. I could just as easily stick my toe on the down button to stop Tails from jumping when I jump, and that way I can kill the boss without interference.

    Against my own argument though, this is how Sonic 3 should have been, not how we want it to be. I think a lot of people would be pissed that we're removing Tails (CPU assisted or not) from the end of the game. Even if it doesn't make a lot of sense, what's saying we can't edit the end of the game itself and offer up 2 new alternative endings?

    1: You have all emeralds, hit Robotnik 8 times as he carries off the Emerald. Rather than dropping the emerald, he flies off screen and his ship thing from Doomsday comes up next to Sonic as the platform crumbles and then Sonic jumps off the ledge through a big ring (to get 50 rings for the start of doomsday) leaving Tails behind on a lift which could have easily transported him back down to the ground (This would explain how Robotnik got the Master Emerald back after Sonic defeated him in Death Egg, and how Tails got to the Tornado in time) Tails picks Sonic up in the Tornado as usual.

    2: You haven't got all of the emeralds, hit Robotnik 8 times, he drops the Emerald. If Sonic Alone, Tails picks up Sonic in Tornado. If Sonic and Tails, Knuckles picks them both up in the Tornado.
     
  20. Hanoch

    Hanoch

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    How about you just kill him at the end of death egg zone 1? I mean, sometimes he actually dies at the transition beetween dez1-dez2 with that spinning teleporter, he gets left behind.