Sonic 3 Complete

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by Tiddles, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    Hi folks. I joined after seeing this thread and thinking someone might be interested in a similar edit I'd been working on for my own purposes.

    Head to the Sonic 3 Complete (hack) wiki page to download the latest version and read about what it does.

    Since I'm putting this into the public domain, allow me to take a moment to credit shobiz, whose code to do the initial music switch stuff got me started on this project (found at SSRG), and apologies to the Megamix folks for making off with the B+C Super activation concept, which turned out to be just the solution to "NO KNUCKLES STOP TURNING HYPER" I'd wanted since I first played S3K (though it has partly been replaced again now). Plus about a squillion other contributors who've helped since this original post; they are now listed on the Wiki.
     
  2. Hayate

    Hayate

    Tech Member
    <!--quoteo(post=388947:date=Dec 25 2009, 07:34 PM:name=Tiddles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiddles @ Dec 25 2009, 07:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=388947"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I joined after seeing this thread and thinking someone might be interested in a similar edit I've been working on for my own purposes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Tiddles for tech *brick'd*

    <!--quoteo(post=388947:date=Dec 25 2009, 07:34 PM:name=Tiddles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiddles @ Dec 25 2009, 07:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=388947"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->for one thing, it brings back the main themes from Sonic 3 too<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    fddfdsfs

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->apologies to the Megamix folks for making off with the B+C Super activation concept, which turned out to be just the solution to "NO KNUCKLES STOP TURNING HYPER" I'd wanted since I first played S3K.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Firstly,

    <img src="http://rubbish.hapisan.com/s1spoof.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    Secondly, IMO triple jump (which SATSEE uses) or "hold one button, press another" (which the S-Factor uses, A and C buttons respectively) are better than "press two buttons on the exact same frame". But whatever. Generally if I don't want to transform I'll start a new game and avoid the emeralds =P
     
  3. Namagem

    Namagem

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    <!--quoteo(post=388959:date=Dec 25 2009, 03:12 PM:name=Hayate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hayate @ Dec 25 2009, 03:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=388959"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Secondly, IMO triple jump (which SATSEE uses) or "hold one button, press another" (which the S-Factor uses, A and C buttons respectively) are better than "press two buttons on the exact same frame". But whatever. Generally if I don't want to transform I'll start a new game and avoid the emeralds =P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I use it for ring conservation more than anything.
     
  4. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    I tend to do it by holding C and pressing B - I'd hate to have to mash them at once too. You could equally hold B and press C if debug is off.

    Incidentally, I didn't mention it in the notes, but the debug sprite check function that used to be on C+B is on C+A in this version to accommodate the super switch.
     
  5. Xilla

    Xilla

    ....and you may now look back at your screens. Member
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    <!--quoteo(post=388870:date=Dec 25 2009, 08:10 AM:name=RGamer2009)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RGamer2009 @ Dec 25 2009, 08:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=388870"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is sweet! That is awesome music!

    Now all we need is a hack that lets you complete all S3&K levels correctly in order with all characters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    On that note, has anyone tried placing Flying Battery between Carnival Night and Ice Cap?
     
  6. Overlord

    Overlord

    ...did we just switch realities? Moderator
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    No, but I'd imagine that's trivial to do - at a guess, 4 bytes changed and a few levels swapped around on the level select?
     
  7. Hayate

    Hayate

    Tech Member
    I'd wonder whether the giant rings would stay as the flashing S&K ones.
     
  8. Aquaslash

    Aquaslash

    Emerald Dragoon Moderator
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    The S Factor: Sonia and Silver
    <!--quoteo(post=388947:date=Dec 25 2009, 02:34 PM:name=Tiddles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiddles @ Dec 25 2009, 02:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=388947"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hi folks. I joined after seeing this thread and thinking someone might be interested in a similar edit I've been working on for my own purposes.

    Get it here: <a href="http://www.megaupload.com/?d=87YWA614" target="_blank">http://www.megaupload.com/?d=87YWA614</a>

    This replaces the same songs as Hayate's version, but doesn't drop any tracks other than the S&K versions being replaced, and fixes the clap sound in the miniboss and Knuckles themes. (Fun fact - DAC samples B2 and B3 are different in S&K vs. S3. Spent ages working that one out.)

    It does a number of other tweaky/fixy things in addition to this, so it's probably not to everyone's taste if you just want those themes back (for one thing, it brings back the main themes from Sonic 3 too, which everyone seems to hate, but at least you don't have to suffer it during Super/Hyper any more.) It also contains the S3C 0517 credits music. So take your pick. There's a full list of changes in this version in the zip file.

    If anyone wants the disassembly for any of the stuff in here feel free to contact me, but I make no warranty as to the quality of the code, and none of it is spectacularly innovative or exciting.

    And since I'm putting this into the public domain, allow me to take a moment to credit shobiz, whose code to do the initial music switch stuff got me started on this project (found at <a href="http://sonicresearch.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=636)" target="_blank">http://sonicresearch.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=636)</a>, and apologies to the Megamix folks for making off with the B+C Super activation concept, which turned out to be just the solution to "NO KNUCKLES STOP TURNING HYPER" I'd wanted since I first played S3K. Plus Wiki contributors everywhere and everyone who worked on Music Pointer Fixer.

    It does seem like, generally speaking, most people around the 'net prefer the S&K music versions, but I'm sure someone will care to use this at least - if I've been inspired enough to put it all together I'm sure someone will appreciate the result.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Well shoot, now I'm never going to play the original S3K again! Thanks so much for sharing! This is like, everything that could have possibly been wrong about S3K fixed, and tweaked. :)

    The <I>definitive</I> Sonic 3, if you will.
     
  9. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    To make it an FBZ reorder perfectly, I think you'd have to do the following, in order of least to most difficult:<ul><li>Change the level exit object definitions in Carnival Night and Mushroom Hill</li><li>Re-order the level select</li><li>Probably do something about the flashing rings... I haven't looked into any of that code but it's probably fairly mundane to alter, and it might even be possible to simplify it since you no longer have the special case of zone 04 being out of sequence.</li><li>Do cruel and unusual things to the save game level order and icon sequence (although if you used the Sonic 3 FBZ icon, the icon stuff would be simpler)</li><li>Construct a sensible alternative cutscene between Mushroom Hill and Sandopolis (and possibly Carnival Night and Flying Battery if you don't buy the idea that the cannon would fire you up there by chance - might be able to port the MHZ one over?)</li></ul>I'd love to have a version that does this, but not quite enough to go through the pain of putting it all together myself, at least for now.
     
  10. LordOfSquad

    LordOfSquad

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    making cool music no one gives a shit about
    The Mushroom Hill closing cutscene could be changed to use Angel Island's Flying Battery, maybe?
     
  11. Xilla

    Xilla

    ....and you may now look back at your screens. Member
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    <!--quoteo(post=389020:date=Dec 25 2009, 02:37 PM:name=Tiddles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiddles @ Dec 25 2009, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389020"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[*]Construct a sensible alternative cutscene between Mushroom Hill and Sandopolis<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The Flying Battery could just be passing Mushroom Hill, Sonic just hung onto it until it flew over Sandopolis and let go! ;)
     
  12. ICEknight

    ICEknight

    Researcher Researcher
    <!--quoteo(post=388947:date=Dec 25 2009, 02:34 PM:name=Tiddles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiddles @ Dec 25 2009, 02:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=388947"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hi folks. I joined after seeing this thread and thinking someone might be interested in a similar edit I've been working on for my own purposes.

    Get it here: <a href="http://www.megaupload.com/?d=87YWA614" target="_blank">http://www.megaupload.com/?d=87YWA614</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Credits music has been replaced with the S3C 0517 version.
    Sonic/Tails have their final Launch Base 2 boss restored, with its Sonic 3 behaviour.
    Knuckles now fights EggRobo in Flying Battery 2.
    SONIC text is no longer backwards when the Tornado flies left during the ending.
    The music tempo glitch at the beginning of Doomsday has been removed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Even the small details are awesome. Great work, dude. =O

    However, I'm not too fond of:
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Super/Hyper must be invoked by pressing B+C for a double jump (Megamix style).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    ...Just because it's not intuitive at all, with all the main Sonic games using just one button for everything, and all. =\




    EDIT: After having played it for some time, I gotta ask about the reason behind this:
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Music no longer fades out before the Got Through screen<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Having the "got through" music interrupt the level tune sounds a bit... odd.
     
  13. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    <!--quoteo(post=389052:date=:name=ICEknight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ICEknight) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389052"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->SONIC text is no longer backwards when the Tornado flies left during the ending.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I like to think of this as "Fix Tails' obsessive compulsion with painting the Tornado symmetrically."

    <!--quoteo(post=389052:date=:name=ICEknight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ICEknight) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389052"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, I'm not too fond of:
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Super/Hyper must be invoked by pressing B+C for a double jump (Megamix style).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    ...Just because it's not intuitive at all, with all the main Sonic games using just one button for everything, and all. =\
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Indeed, it's a shame to lose the simplicity, and short of giving the game away in the manual, it'd be nigh on impossible to find the transformations at all if it had been set up this way originally. But ultimately I couldn't think of a better solution to the enforced transformation problem, which was one of my biggest problems with the original, personally. Triple jump is an elegant idea for Sonic, but Tails relies on that anyway for flight, and I also wanted to make sure I didn't make impossible any manoeuvres that you could do in S3K - which includes jump-super-glide, jump-super-fly, jump-hyper-dash.

    It's probably a bit of a pain if you usually jump with A though. I might look at making it anything-plus-B sometime. I've used C for a long time due to debug.

    <!--quoteo(post=389052:date=:name=ICEknight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ICEknight) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389052"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->EDIT: After having played it for some time, I gotta ask about the reason behind this:
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Music no longer fades out before the Got Through screen<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Having the "got through" music interrupt the level tune sounds a bit... odd.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Simply to imitate pure Sonic 3, which had no fade. I always preferred it that way, and after all Sonic 1-2 got away with it.
    I'm not sure whether this comes down to my having been stuck with the PAL version for years - with the fade there combined with lower speed, it seemed like we almost dropped to eerie silence before coming back with a jaunty victory theme. This isn't nearly so jarring at NTSC speed, but I still prefer the lack of fade.

    I did add it back in a couple of places where no fade sounded especially wrong - specifically where we go straight from boss music to victory music. That used to be Launch Base, Lava Reef and Sky Sanctuary, but now Sky Sanctuary is the only one left that works that way.
     
  14. Icewarrior

    Icewarrior

    I'm a member of S.T.A.R.S !!11!!!1!! Member
    Huh guys, quick question: what's this "NO KNUCKLES STOP TURNING HYPER" thing you're talking about?
    I don't remember anything particular about Hyper Knuckles...
     
  15. <!--quoteo(post=389144:date=Dec 26 2009, 09:32 AM:name=Icewarrior)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Icewarrior @ Dec 26 2009, 09:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389144"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Huh guys, quick question: what's this "NO KNUCKLES STOP TURNING HYPER" thing you're talking about?
    I don't remember anything particular about Hyper Knuckles...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If you had all the emeralds with knuckles and had 50 rings, any attempt to glide or wall climb would result in super/hyper knuckles
     
  16. Icewarrior

    Icewarrior

    I'm a member of S.T.A.R.S !!11!!!1!! Member
    <!--quoteo(post=389145:date=Dec 26 2009, 10:41 AM:name=TheDarkArchon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheDarkArchon @ Dec 26 2009, 10:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389145"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=389144:date=Dec 26 2009, 09:32 AM:name=Icewarrior)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Icewarrior @ Dec 26 2009, 09:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389144"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Huh guys, quick question: what's this "NO KNUCKLES STOP TURNING HYPER" thing you're talking about?
    I don't remember anything particular about Hyper Knuckles...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If you had all the emeralds with knuckles and had 50 rings, any attempt to glide or wall climb would result in super/hyper knuckles
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Ah yes. The problem is the same for Tails too I guess.
     
  17. Sonic Warrior TJ

    Sonic Warrior TJ

    Chopped Liver Champion Member
    <!--quoteo(post=389147:date=Dec 26 2009, 04:55 AM:name=Icewarrior)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Icewarrior @ Dec 26 2009, 04:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389147"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=389145:date=Dec 26 2009, 10:41 AM:name=TheDarkArchon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheDarkArchon @ Dec 26 2009, 10:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389145"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=389144:date=Dec 26 2009, 09:32 AM:name=Icewarrior)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Icewarrior @ Dec 26 2009, 09:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389144"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Huh guys, quick question: what's this "NO KNUCKLES STOP TURNING HYPER" thing you're talking about?
    I don't remember anything particular about Hyper Knuckles...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If you had all the emeralds with knuckles and had 50 rings, any attempt to glide or wall climb would result in super/hyper knuckles
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Ah yes. The problem is the same for Tails too I guess.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Am I the only one who enjoys using the Insta-Shield or what?
     
  18. Spanner

    Spanner

    The Tool Member
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    I love how you changed the level select background to Sonic 3's data select background. :)
    I wouldn't mind looking at this data you're offering though.
     
  19. Hayate

    Hayate

    Tech Member
    <!--quoteo(post=389143:date=Dec 26 2009, 09:28 AM:name=Tiddles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiddles @ Dec 26 2009, 09:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=389143"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I did add it back in a couple of places where no fade sounded especially wrong - specifically where we go straight from boss music to victory music. That used to be Launch Base, Lava Reef and Sky Sanctuary, but now Sky Sanctuary is the only one left that works that way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The Lava Reef boss should just restore LRZ2 music when you beat it anyway. The other two are like that because there's no capsule to open.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Triple jump is an elegant idea for Sonic, but Tails relies on that anyway for flight<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I have to admit I never thought of that. Hold A, press C would do the job much better then. If you change the debug mode's gravity flip feature to be triggered when A is released and check that you didn't press C while it was pressed, that would avoid conflicts.
     
  20. ICEknight

    ICEknight

    Researcher Researcher
    You know, I think this is the first time I don't keep wanting to un-become Super Sonic due to the ear-piercing music. Now it feels more like a true reward.