Sonic Team once again failing to understand why Adventure-era fans love those games :v: What we've seen of this game so far is DREADFULLY inconsistent in tone. It's honestly really worrying, because this looks like a Pontaff-era cutscene juxtaposted with an over-the-top edgy character for ultimately no reason. And, once again, the post-Colors cast is reaaaally tearing it up in here. Honestly, if you think this looks anywhere near the level of a third Adventure game's writing, do yourself a favor and take a look back at them. Yeah, they were admittedly really fucking stupid at times, but they're on an entirely different tier than this.
If we don't hate on everything Sonic Team does then what is this forum even for? /s Tbh the whole thing is kind of growing on me. Sure it's hilariously edgy and lame, but this game is speaking to my inner child who loved that in Adventure 1 and 2.
Fucking no! Some of us have standards! I don't care if it's not an epic, this should still be an A-quality game, and right now, I'm not even seeing B-quality. The reason the negativity is so high here, is because we've been around among the longest, and many of us have reverse engineered these games, and know what makes them tick. A lot of us can tell if a game is going to be good or not simply by watching gameplay. The gameplay looks like a downgrade from what we got with Generations. As I've said before, I'm happy to be wrong, but I've frankly seen all I need to, at this point. We have been around the block long enough to know that the franchise deserves better than the past decade and a half it was put through. At this point, I either want a Gold Medal or a fucking mercy killing. Read me loud and clear here: An abject 1/10 failure is better than mediocrity at this point. Mediocre is all Sonic has been since 9/11. I think it hit him the hardest to watch the globalists detonate those towers and blame it on holographic airliners. He's never been the same. Spoiler Tower 7 wasn't hit by planes.
You're right in saying that there's way too much negativity around this game, and that a lot of people are just pointing the finger at, "haha, fan characters", or, "man this plot is so bad it's parody". All the same, I feel justifying it as "just for kids" isn't fair. I mean, take a look at CartoonNetwork. Only big difference between their shows targeted for ages 7-12 and 12+ is usually how much the writer cares. Typically saying your product is for "all ages" indicates far greater quality than, "we have to target kids in specific". Most of their shows targeted for 12+(all ages) are much more successful at getting the attention of the younger audience; see for example, Adventure Time. If the kids love it, then that's great, but I often see "it's for kids" or "we can't please everyone" a catch-all to dodge solid criticism; although both can be valid reasoning. I can look past the plot, but my main beef with this game is how it's potentially worse than the previous 4 Sonic games in terms of level design and player control. As a tangent, Sonic Forces discussion is really rough even outside of this site. You have one faction swearing this game is great and all nay-sayers are bandwaggoning with popular opinion, and you have another faction saying that anyone that likes the game is a complete idiot. It sucks.
I don't need to look back on SA2's plot any further. It's epic climax was popping boils on a space lizard with rock music playing in the background and it's riddled with plot holes. Whether this story is garbage or not has yet to be completely seen, but SA2's plot was garbage.
The reason it sucks is exactly because people keep pretending there are sides, instead of ideas. Of course a group of people who mostly share an opinion are going to lash out against the opposition without much base to their argument, they're being attacked for thinking differently. Would you quietly sit at the dinner table and be berated for not eating peas while then being expected to eat those peas? And I'm not saying this is one sided, but it's clearly happening more in one place than it is the other. Shay makes a quote in his video on the narrative of the series where he makes sure to mention that, "I might slag off the very thing that got you into the Sonic series". He says that to clarify that his thoughts are just that, thoughts. Does he present them in an assured and confident manner? Of course. But that's not because his thoughts are superior, it's because it's what he sternly believes. Like, look. I've been very transparent in my dislike of the modern series. But I've also been quick to point out things I DO like about it. Because Sonic doesn't have to be exactly the way I want it to be in order for it to be successful. And I know this. Stuff from the modern games have been done very well, and have received a lot of praise because of it. But does that automatically justify all the stupid bullshit that follows it? No. And despite those who say otherwise, I truly believe that making Sonic a respected icon in gaming again is very possible. Look at Mania. Hell look at Colors and Generations. You rarely, if ever, hear much bad about those games. That right there is proof that Sonic doesn't need "memes" or "cheese" to survive. It doesn't have to stoop to the lowest common denominator to get people's attention. If it has substance, quality, effort, passion, and a clear intent behind it, people will notice that. I'd rather the attitude towards a bad Sonic game be one of upset, than everyone rolling their eyes wondering why the series even bothers anymore. But how do you expect people to react when there has been a staggering track record of bad elements overshadowing whatever good there is? But above all else, rather than trying to thrash the only people who even care enough to talk about this train wreck anymore, why not blame the people RESPONSIBLE for the train wreck? Don't somehow imply that their negativity is "bad" for the game, when the game is the reason they're negative to begin with. I know very well that's not going to happen, but it's nice to dream of a world where you can say bad things about Sonic, and have the exact same reaction were you to say something positive about Sonic. But maybe I'm just on some silly pills.
*popping boils on a space lizard in space. Either way, it was more or less an attempt to make Sonic more of a shonen kind of thing ("Teriaaaaa!"). It's a love it or hate it kind of thing for the most part, and I do appreciate how they tried to flesh out each character's abilities and purpose more than any game in the series. But it really is goofy at times. I think people worry about the plot in Forces because of the custom character's value in the story - the belief the custom character will only cheapen the story. There are people who expressed how they might try to make the plot a power fantasy to pander to the custom character. Taking an established series and making you play as an an original character is a real hard thing to pull off; Xenoverse 2 couldn't even manage that so they recycled the plot of the first game. Usually what few good ideas there is can be ruined by an attempt to make the player character relevant in the game's story, which I'd argue is a really difficult way to go about it if you're working in an established canon. Many worry this game's plot will just be a power fantasy spinoff, with its events being reversed at the very end, and all of that worry is coming from the existence of the custom character and his/ her role in the plot. I'm not saying, "the custom character sucks!", I'm saying very few managed to pull this off. I get you, but I'm saying there's a whole lot of going ad-hominem over defending/ hating the game, my post isn't pointing the finger at one side of the argument. By no means am I saying to give the game a free pass, I'm saying that there's almost an "us vs them" mentality in much of the discussion of this game. Regardless if you're for or against, at the moment you can't say much with out it devolving into buzzwords. I don't see where you think I'm against those who have discussion of the game - I'm saying it's hard to have a discussion of this game anymore.
Just because you see a "train wreck" doesn't mean we all do. I'll admit, the gameplay so far hasn't really excited me, and some of it looks painfully dull. But what is so damning about what we've seen so far that warrants the term "train wreck?" I'd hate to know what term you would use to describe Rise of Lyric.
Train wreck as in regards to the series, not this game in particular. And while I'm not saying NO one likes this game so far, as I know plenty of people are excited for this (potentially more than Mania), the reaction from the media and those not associated with the fanbase has been one of lukewarm ridicule, and unless that's what you want from the game, I'd say it's D.O.A. to a lot of people.
Well, it looks to be about as boring as Sonic Heroes. I'd say that's worse than being as bad as Sonic '06, because at least it's a terrible game that is fun to play for a bit. Because it's terrible. This game looks so stale that it might not even have anything horribly gamebreaking to play with, and that would be a greek fucking tragedy. Like I said, better to be a shitty game than a mediocre one. A failed back-alley abortion. An abortion you could see coming from a mile away. You could almost sense SEGA reel back in agony at what they had done when they figured out that they had to pay people to port fucking CryEngine to the Wii U just to hold up their end of a bargain they never planned for to completion. Much the same as what we're seeing here with Forces, only Forces looks tolerably bland instead of the absolute misfortune that was Sonic Boom. Forces presents itself poorly. It is Hot Topic in the wrong places, and Coldsteel the Deviantart Fancharacter in even worse places. The gameplay and even basic character movement behavior of Sonic himself does not look polished, and in some places, stiffer than Generations. The only thing I really see that shines in this mess is Classic Sonic. It looks like they really fixed a lot of mistakes, and I'm glad they added the Drop Dash for the sake of continuity. That was a good call. While I do like the occasional Sonic Buttrock, it is showing its age now more than ever, and I cannot imagine it appeals at all to kids these days. Not even ironically. That's a problem. Sonic has never been out-of-touch before, no matter how corny the franchise makes itself to be in the process. He has always been hip with the kids, and between this mess and Boom, I'd say that Sonic must be losing considerable grasp in the popularity department. This seems like fumbling for a niche.
Hahah goddamn Lobotomy, you're edgier than this game thinks it is I've basically tuned out on having an opinion on any of this at this point. Honestly, the less I think about anything I'm seeing of Forces, the more I'll enjoy it when I play it at... some point after release. Any material being shown lately that could potentially influence my view of the game has turned into meaningless white noise, especially with all the varied opinions I'm seeing.
I feel bad when I add more negativity into the negative fire. Here's the thing though -- if we weren't this critical, we probably wouldn't have Sonic Mania. Or the redone classic stages in Sonic Generations. The developers won't know what we want if we don't voice our opinions -- as harsh as they can be sometimes.
Sonic 06 also had a bad story, that's true, and it wasn't even cringy fun like SA2's was it was just cringy. I didn't mind Colors story though, thought it was a lot better than SA2's anyway.
I typically find a heavy emphasis on story to be intrusive these days, but I've been saying for years that if we ever got another story heavy game, I'd want it to be like either Sonic Battle if it's mostly lighthearted or, if the series went all grimdark again, a deliberately silly plot that takes after Shadow the Hedgehog. This most likely isn't a parody of older grimdark stories, but I'm probably still going to love it.
What I meant by that is that this game seems to be randomly mixing Colors-era writing with Adventure-era sensibilities and it just... doesn't work, at all.
Mulling over the production credits and what we've seen from this game so far, I don't think Forces actually is really mixing anything from both eras. I believe Forces actually is just a straight continuation of the Colors-era of games, with all of this supposed Adventure-era elements that has been front and center of the game's presentation and marketing (the bleaker tone and premise, Shadow and Chaos returning, Infinite as a major new villain) just fancy gift-wrapping. They're not actually a major influence on Forces' design or actual direction, they're just some demanded changes made as a way of throwing fans of those games a bone. Look at the confirmed production credentials we know so far. We have Kishimoto as director, Ohtani as (lead) composer/arranger (he was there from the Adventure era too, but worked under Senoue and with other composers), and Warren (and presumably Graff too) as the writer(s). All three are key leading figures from the production staff for the Colors-era of games. From the Adventure era? We have...Nakamura as producer? Senone arranging a few tracks and/or scouting talent? That's seems to be it, otherwise. (As for Iizuka himself, while he is a key player in both eras --director/game designer of Adventure era, producer for Colors era)-- he seems to have a more limited role in the creation of this game, due to his new supervisory role in SoA; though some interviews still naming him as producer.) You can also see this with the game's design too. Aside from the obvious return to Boost gameplay (and the new Custom Hero gameplay being derivative of that), there are also lots of 2D gameplay/sections and limited "corridor" 3D sections, as well as several precision platforming elements in the level design. World/level selection maps seem to be returning too, from what we've seen from the demos. Wisps are brought back as boost fodder for Modern Sonic and Wispons for the Custom Hero. Moreover, despite the realistic destroyed city that is City Heights / Park Avenue, the artstyle has been described by Iizuka himself to still look cartoony--you can see this with how some of the trees are more stylized like Lost World, and the Green Hill level looking more stylized (somewhat like Lost World's Windy Hill) and less realistic than the Green Hill in Generations. While the dialogue we've heard from characters is much more dialed down in self-awareness and jokes from Generations, I think you can still get flashes of it, namely with Tails and Dr. Eggman's banter from the Classic Sonic boss fight. The in-game cutscenes we saw with Infinite (namely the camera staging, the animations, and the lighting effects) are more similar to Lost World, compared to the Adventure era of games too (which I guess could be said are more dynamic / cinematic in comparison? IDK). Primarily 3D levels/segments? Hubworlds (Adventure 1 / Sonic 2006) or linear story-progression (Adventure 2, Heroes, Shadow)? (Photo-)realistic graphics/environments? Existing cast of characters made playable? Genre roulette playstyles? Chao Gardens? None of that is here. I think this also exactly why people who like the "edge" from the storyline and rock music from that era aren't gelling with Infinite and the recent rock tracks revealed for this game so far, though they couldn't exactly pinpoint why they liked it in those games but why they don't like it here. To top this all off, a cake analogy, because I like food analogies--Forces is a cake that, from its outward appearance, seems to be bathed from top to bottom with chocolate [Adventure-era] frosting and sprinkles on it. But when people take a look at or taste the actual cake covered underneath, it will turn out to be another strawberry [Colors-era] cake, made with the same ingredients and baked by the same chefs. As for Classic Sonic? ...he seems to be a afterthought for this game, really; I'd say he is the sole cherry on top of this otherwise non-vanilla [Classic-era] cake. But most classic fans won't bother with it because they're also getting a pure vanilla cake in the form of Mania. :v:
