The younger fandom, and how they learned from exactly none of our mistakes.

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Josh, Jan 6, 2020.

  1. Generations 3DS wasn't outright terrible, but it wasn't good either, imo (but given that the 3DS version had less than a year of dev time, IIRC, it's understandable why it turned out the way it did). The only thing it really has over the HD version is arguably the Special Stages and Final Boss fight.

    That said, I think Dimps was likely dropped not only due to Sega's shift to the mobile market, but also because the only prominent handheld on the market now is the Switch, which is a console/handheld hybrid system that's basically a... portable home console. There's really no need for Sega to make 2 versions of mainline Sonic games anymore, unless you count mobile tie-in games like Sonic Forces Speed Battle developed by Hardlight.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  2. Rudie Radio Waves

    Rudie Radio Waves

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    Many a game.
  3. big smile

    big smile

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    RE: Dimps - It's odd: Sonic Rush, Sonic Rush Adventure and Sonic Colours were all decent with strong level design.

    Then Generations rolled around and the level design went back to the style found in the Advance games with lots of cheap hits and repetitive level layouts. It's almost like Dimps needs two screens in order to do good design!

    But I think CynicalSonicGuy is correct: They probably dumped Dimps because the Switch means there's no need for handheld exclusives anymore. Sonic wasn't doing that great in the handheld market anyway. Sonic Rush Adventure had weak sales, which is why all future titles tied into main releases.
     
  4. Palas

    Palas

    Don't lose your temper so quickly. Member
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    This, also Sonic Rush and Sonic Colours are horrible. Rush Adventure is the best of the bunch.
     
  5. SpeedStarTMQ

    SpeedStarTMQ

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    I did play the hell out of Rush and Rush Adventure, and upon going back to them I haven’t found them that engaging or worth replaying.

    Bit like the boost games.
     
  6. Going back on topic, what I think Sega needs to do is merge Classic and Modern Sonic back together. As good as games like Generations and Mania were, I agree with the notion that they kind of had the unintended negative effect of validating the idea that Classic and Modern Sonic are different characters.

    Here’s what I would propose: the hybrid 3D/2D style of Unleashed, Colors, Generations, Lost World, and Forces. The 3D sections control like SA2, but Sonic has the boost and it’s recommended to use it for sections that are straightforward like the roadways of City Escape and the loops of Green Forest. The 2D sections strip Sonic of the boost and, like the Genesis games, focus more on momentum and physics-based gameplay rather than just booking it to the end of a level. Each level is filled with Red Star Rings, and to progress to the boss and therefore next zone you need to collect a certain amount.

    Also, Sonic’s design. If it were up to me, I’d merge the best aspects of his Classic and Modern designs. Keep the lighter blue and the shorter, cuter basic look of the Classic one, but the shoes, green eyes, and slightly longer quills of the Modern one. Also, I’d introduce a costume system similar to Mario Odyssey where you can buy outfits for Sonic using rings. So if for some god-forsaken reason you want to play the game using the Sonic ‘06 design with the Werehog’s shoes and Boom Sonic’s sports tape and scarf, you can.
     
  7. I think the damage is already done, and there's really no going back from it. These issues run so deep that they seem to have started from the series' own inception and early marketing. Best they can do at this point is just roll with the punches and keep going with whatever they're doing. I'm not interested in the current direction of the series myself, but I really don't see any real solution to fix this mess.
     
  8. Yash

    Yash

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  9. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

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    I don't hate that I recognize them, I hate that Yasushi Yamaguchi's Sonic 2 manual art and the Sonic CD official art are stuck in B, and Naoto Ohshima's art is in C.
     
  10. RikohZX

    RikohZX

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    I think the problem with this approach is that despite Sonic Team's insistence on pushing forwards, they and Sega really haven't. They keep bringing back Classic Sonic for modern stuff, they've tossed out the real / exaggerated world style for a more classic abstraction sorta, and after Mania's success over Forces they have no real reason to believe there's a whole lot of value in pushing forwards without nostalgia nipping at the heels for some sort of appeal. Now with people stirring rumors over their potential urge to remake Adventure, even modern may start relying on old modern for sales; Forces was already advertised to appeal towards that specific part of the fanbase to a degree (even if it was mostly false advertising straight up).

    They can't really move on if they keep circling right back around in a mobius strip of repeating the same things trying to catch that old lightning in a bottle again, and by effect, they keep hitting these same problems by digging it up out of what could've been a grave if they left it well alone.
     
  11. When it comes to the story, my dream is that Sonic Team will ditch most of the games and just start over. Keep the Genesis games, the Adventure games, and maybe Colors, and then take it in a new direction from there. I think a sort of "continuity clean-up" similar to what Disney did with Star Wars is something the series needs. All Sonic Team needs to do is act like anything Heroes and beyond (besides Colors) never happened. That will allow them to continue the series' story in a creative way and potentially re-introduce concepts from non-canon games in better and more creative ways.
     
  12. I think they know they'll never get the 'lightning in a bottle' effect again, so that's why they're just milking nostalgia and relying on memes via social media to keep people interested. They know it sells, and they're going to keep doing it until it stops selling. As someone else mentioned earlier, Sega and Sonic Team are no longer competing with other companies, so they've downsized and focused on what makes easy money. They know what they're doing is alienating a lot of fans, but they don't care so long as what they're doing meets sales expectations. If the stockholders are pleased, Sega is pleased. That's just how it is.

    I've thought about this a while back, but there's really no point to it now. As I said before, they're in too deep now, and it's clear that they don't care about any form of continuity. Hell, the stories are so bland and paper-thin now of days, that it makes me wonder why even bother having them? It's just a waste of resources at this point. Since no one seems to care about story outside of the fanbase, and it's clear that Sega is perfectly fine with alienating fans from certain eras of the franchise (particularly the ones who actually do care about stories in the series), I just think they should just go full-blown arcade-style with it at this point.
     
  13. Multi Battler

    Multi Battler

    puniboy 4 president Member
    I’m not exactly sure why they’re holding back. Every game so far (yes, even the bad ones) got at least SOMETHING right. My guess is they’re building up momentum for something truly great. Either that or it really is time to grow up. I can’t take another Forces.

    One more thing: You can’t just say, ‘let’s merge all the Sonics, it’s going to be fine!’. There must be a better, less bold way.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  14. The Claw

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    I'd like to see where the Adventure 2 story was headed before, well, the less said about Shadow's game the better. Setting up Eggman being conflicted about his actions intrigued me.
     
  15. big smile

    big smile

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    People used to complain about the stories being too convoluted, which was a legitimate complaint, but now they've gone to the other extreme and it's just as bad.
    I don’t even mind simplistic storytelling, it's just that they plots they use don’t have enough content for a single game. The intro will set up a conflict and then the rest of the story is spent killing time (by cracking jokes) until the player reaches the final level, where the conflict is immediately resolved.

    I think the main problem is that Ken Pontac and Warren Graff aren't very good writers. Sonic Runners, one of the few titles not to be written by them, had a simplistic story, but it was fun because there was lots of stuff happening. It also did a good job of tidying up the continuity (such as explaining why Knuckles is able to leave the Master Emerald to go on Adventures). (Although Runners also had continuity gaffs, especially when it treated the storybook games as both main universe and alt-universe titles).

    [Then again, I gathered that Pontac & Graff didn’t write Forces (they only localized it), so it's not just them that are the problem].

    I don’t see what's to gain by doing a reset. Nothing has happened post-Heroes which fundamentally changes the status quo, mainly because all the post heroes games (bar a few exceptions) have been stand-alone stories. They can take whatever past element and do whatever they want with them.
     
  16. XRick

    XRick

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    How much I agree with you there...except for Sonic Colors.

    In my opinion, most semblances of a continuity have been progressively tossed away from Heroes onwards, except for character appearances and a few nods to previous games.
    To me, the last Sonic game from the original continuity was SA2, with Shadow being in a gray area only because I deem it the conclusion to the Project Arc Saga.

    After SA2, I also dreamed up about Eggman getting conflicted about his megalomaniacal ways and kinda decide to turn a new leaf.
    In a sense, Sonic X played up with it a little, only to turn it into a new scheme of his.
    One could bring up a new version of Eggman Nega, and have Eggman act up as his foil, this time from the good guys side or G.U.N.'s.
    Still, Shadow could exist, as long as his backstory and character arc were reworked to fit better the continuity.
     
  17. I just felt like Sonic Colors was such a step in the right direction for the franchise that it'd be a shame to ignore it. The Wisps have become such an integral part of the series now I think it'd sort of be a disservice to just ignore them, especially when there's so much potential. I feel like if they were handled as they were in Colors (optional but useful, not overused, and plenty of variety, so they don't wear out their welcome) we'd have something good.
    My belief is that ignoring most post Adventure 2 games will help lift some of the stigma the series has felt over the past couple years. If everything Heroes and beyond was gone, we'd have a slimmer cast - just Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Amy (Iizuka retired Big so we won't worry about him, and Eggman retired the E-100 series). We also wouldn't have to remember those god-forsaken moments, like Shadow spittin' second-grade-level profanity every five seconds and Sonic smoochin' a human princess.
     
  18. Jay T.

    Jay T.

    Mark Nutt~! Member
    I'm pretty sure this would alienate the fanbase even more. There are people who are fans of games from Heroes onwards and getting rid of characters, especially popular ones like Shadow and Cream would be a bad idea. Even if Sonic Team doesn't acknowledge certain games, the fans will. People still acknowledge characters from Archie's Sonic even if they were wiped from existence. It also wouldn't erase the memories of Shadow cursing or Sonic getting kissed by Elise. We're stuck with those. It's not like the games ('sides maybe Lego Dimensions) ever acknowledged those moments anyway.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  19. big smile

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    Sonic Unleashed & Colours kind of did this already. All the on-going storylines were dropped (save for the odd reference). And most of the extra cast has been retired. Characters like Big, Cream and Marine only appear in one-offs, and even some of the more prominent characters like Shadow, Rouge and Silver barely appear (really, Forces was the first main game title to do anything with these characters after a near-decade gap of them appearing in main game titles). And things like the princess kissing are still talked about even though they occurred over a decade ago, so it's quite likely they will live on even if there is a reset.
     
  20. Multi Battler

    Multi Battler

    puniboy 4 president Member
    Ok, here’s what I suggest:

    1. Go to http://sonic.sega.jp/SonicChannel/character/
    2. Click on the names (the ones written in katakana)
    3. Everyone is here! :specialed:

    You see how there’s no Zeti, Wisps or Infinite? That’s my headcanon for now.