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The younger fandom, and how they learned from exactly none of our mistakes.

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Josh, Jan 6, 2020.

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  1. Azookara

    Azookara

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    I'm gonna echo what I said above as well as what MM HD said, in that despite art style and gameplay changes it was still rather easy to distinguish as the same series and consider the same characters et cetera.

    Besides, I've always found the differences between the two to be way over-blown. They exist and are easy to spot, yes, but (barring extreme cases like Shadow/Riders/06) Sonic's art styles in the game series have always had a lot more in common between each other than they haven't, and that counts the classics. To have preference and ideals is cool and fine, but the hyperbole people clung to over the years that they don't even look like they're from the same series has always been kind of.. well, hyperbole. As if people haven't seen an art shift before..

    Not even to mention that SA1's main gameplay style is really just classic gameplay but with a homing attack (a necessity for hitting enemies in 3D while keeping it simple and arcadey) and less verticality / alt route options to the level design (something they could do better on). But with people emboldening those differences so much over the years as if they make for a completely different game, I feel like people are in denial a bit. lol

    And as for the story.. I mean come on. S3K definitely painted itself as an epic. As did Sonic 2 and CD, for what little each did. SA1 just did the same, but took it an extra step now that they could use voice clips and cinematic camera angles. It's the same series, they could just do more now. It's not a black and white matter of change vs conservation.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
  2. Yash

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    Even as a kid (11 when Mega Collection came out), having a Sega Saturn with Sonic Jam (which I understand was not common for American 11-year-olds) originally put me off from Mega Collection. When it was first announced I was picturing CD, Chaotix, the arcade games, maybe some of the Game Gear games, etc. not just a collection of the Genesis titles and that was it. Particularly when they announced "five bonus games!" and it was literally the three lock-on games, Ristar and Flicky, and with rumors of Sega releasing a compilation with every Sonic game being fairly prominent back then.

    But yeah, it did a solid service for fans just getting into the series. I remember talking video games to a girl once in high school and Sonic came up, and she was like "oh yeah we have the new one (Heroes) and the one that has all the old ones on the PS2, and the new one sucks, but I love the old ones" and it definitely made me appreciate the Mega Collection a bit more.

    Especially since while Mega Collection didn't do much to live up to Jam, nothing's really matched Mega Collection since then, either. Still will always think the content of Mega and Gems combined should have just been what Mega was in the first place, but money is money.
     
  3. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

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    This is all spot on, though I will say another thing that separates SA1 from the classics gameplay-wise is the lack of momentum-based physics, which I think is just something they weren't able to pull off in a 3D engine at the time. Even then, the game itself still feels like an evolution of the series. The game was even going to use the classic designs before they decided to try and rebrand the company.

    I find it strange that I'm defending the art change when I myself prefer the classic games and classic character designs (I don't care for the green eyes even).

    Also, regarding the stories, I think Sonic 1 should have a spot there as well. It's theme in level progression tells a pseudo-epic tale of its own. Sonic is essentially traveling further into darkness, encountering more technology as he chases Eggman across the island. In Spring Yard, he finds a beautiful city, where nature survives alongside technological infrastructure, and in Starlight he travels through what seems like under-construction and ghetto apartment areas, where no plant life seems to exist. Then of course, Eggman's factory is a crud spewing machine land. And I've always found Sonic 1 to have a more serious and slightly darker tone than Sonic 2. The color palettes used often feel darker and more oppressive. And while much of the music is fairly lighthearted, the orchestral feel of the compositions lends them to a more serious tone.

    Some here also referenced Saturday morning cartoons when describing the tone of Colors. While the story of Adventure may be a bit out of the realm of an episodic children's show, I think the tone and feel most of the game carries is very much like a Saturday morning cartoon. Not to mention the fact that Sonic literally had a Saturday morning adaptation during the classic era that had a rather serious tone. And then of course Sonic X didn't have any problems adapting both Adventure stories.
     
  4. Josh

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    I know for a fact there were people as early as 2001 arguing that Adventure was a separate continuity from the classic series. I know this because I was one of them.

    Especially by the time SA2 came along, between the character designs, gameplay changes, and tonal differences, I already saw the Adventure series as pretty much impossible to reconcile with the Genesis series. But that wasn't exactly a common position to take at the time. People didn't start turning on ol' green eyes until later in the decade, and I don't think the concept of "Classic Sonic" as a separate thing really caught until Sonic 4 revealed that it WOULDN'T be using that original design, one of many signs that it was going to be a letdown.
     
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  5. Aesculapius Piranha

    Aesculapius Piranha

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    I'm still confused who gets Runescape. I played it because I couldn't play a real mmo at the time and they play it because I have really no damn idea.
     
  6. Pengi

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    Sonic Adventure was a soft reboot, akin to DC Comics after Crisis on Infinite Earths.

    The stories moved forward, but they were selective about which elements of the past were kept, changed or discarded. They maintained the general continuity with Sonic 1, 2, 3 & Knuckles and CD, but the entire cast was redesigned, Amy was suddenly 12 instead of 8, there was a completely different emerald shrine with no mention of Hidden Palace, no more Super Emeralds or Hyper Sonic, or Super forms for Tails and Knuckles. Sonic Heroes went a step further and introduced Vector, Espio and Charmy meeting everyone for the first time, with new characterisations largely at odds with their profiles in the Chaotix manual.
     
  7. JaxTH

    JaxTH

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    Jack shit.
    They don't shut up about Knuckles specifically during the Super Sonic though.

    Nobody really cared and ignored them being reintroduced though. They only fight people they've never met and then talk about someone they should know when they apparently shouldn't know anything about them.
     
  8. Pengi

    Pengi

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    Very different to the trio seen in Sonic Heroes.
     
  9. Someone in this thread made a very simple statement that is probably very close to the truth for why Sonic just cant seem to churn out a big spectacle, show stealing type game anymore..... Its the budget.
    I've suspected for years that sonic just isnt getting the kind of investment it used to anymore. Iizuka has subtly talked about it on a number of .occasions actually. The only reason we got a game of Mania's quality in recent years is because it was a relatively cheap game to make. If people are expecting to see another game as ambitious as SA1 (which I'd love to see) ST will have to be granted a SA1 like budget, which was pretty big for the time. I dont think ST are getting that for the blue ring boy these days.

    Us fans of different generations arguing and fighting with each other is stupid. Sonic having five different identities at once is absoutely not our fault and we shouldnt be blaming each other. The company should have been much more careful with how it segmented its fans with its "toss at the wall and see what sticks" ideas. Shit on mario for being vanilla all you want, but nintendo truly understands the power of branding and identity with that series and it has stood the test of time because of it. Sonic for a brief period was on the same level of popularity as mario, and that's no small feat. Hes not now because the company didnt take care of him the same way. Nintendo understood Mario's identity and brand needed to be protected for the series' longevity; SEGA just wanted to make as much money as possible with every sonic entry and was willing to try anything with their character regardless of long term consequences.

    Sonic isnt dead now but his days as a big series are likely over, unless a significant change of management happens which I'm not exactly waiting for. And even though he isnt dead, not getting major investment for a series like sonic is about as close to dead as he'll get because his potential is inherently limited by that. As long as video games sell, sonic will sell somewhat because of his recognizablity. But there is no real excitement around the brand to amplify sales.
    Sadly I believe he'd still thrive as a big mainstream title ala mario odyssey in the right hands. Still an instantly recognizable character globally with tons of marketing potential. The right team with the right vision could put sonic back near the top on a few years, it's not hard to see actually.
     
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  10. big smile

    big smile

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    I imagine a big problem is rising dev costs. Back with SA1, they were only developing for one platform, which was a platform that Sega had made and Sonic Team had a big hand in, so they knew exactly what they were working with. Now they have 3+ platforms to worry about. Plus all the graphics need to be in HD (and now 4K) which also increases the work involved.

    Though to be honest, I think less ambitious games are a good thing. A big problem with Adventure - Unleased, is that they have so many ideas, there's a clear sense that Sonic Team didn’t have time to refine all of them and the core Sonic gameplay, in particular, tends to stagnate. What made Colors and Generations so refreshing is that they weren't trying to do so many things so they could really work on the core Sonic game play. With Forces, they went back to big the ideas with the avatar and everything else end up suffering again.

    That's why probably why the fandom is so divided. If you love things like story, characters extra play modes and play styles, then Adventure - Unleased must seem awesome, whereas Colors/Generations feel lacking. Whereas if all you really care about is the core Sonic gameplay, then it's the other way around.
     
  11. qwertysonic

    qwertysonic

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    creating the biggest sonic collection
    This

    Also from a gameplay perspective Sonic Colors (the 2D sections) is probably the least sonic-esque in a long time. It's a lot of blocky slow platforming (like a mario game). Sonic games are distinct for having rolling hills with curves. It's these rolling hills that allow for momentum based speed to build. That's what makes Sonic games different from *generic* platformers. At least in a 2D sense. That's why I think Sonic Colors is a bad Sonic Game.


    Roger's Sonic Dissected on Sonic Colors
     
  12. RikohZX

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    Sonic can't have consistency if Sonic Team and now-seemingly-abandoned devs like Dimps can't. And when consistency has been a problem since even the Genesis era, there's a million and one things different fans expect or want regardless of the generation and age gap. A fair amount of blame is also on Sega's shoulders, too: their executive decisions that have destroyed numerous franchises and helped tank the Saturn (in the west) and Dreamcast, and they're arguably more responsible for Sonic '06's infamy than Sonic Team was, something we've never quite recovered 100% from.

    It's like you can see the pieces that can come together and even be put in the right places to make sense of it, and then your boss walks in, flips the table and tells you to clean it up and probably broke several of the pieces in the process while others go missing. And then everyone blames you for it because you had to put it together, whether you did it poorly or to the best of what you had to work with.
     
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  13. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

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    Speaking of Dimps, do we know why they haven't made another Sonic game since Lost World on the 3DS? I miss their work (Rush Adventure is probably my favorite 2D Sonic game after 3K) even though they destroyed their reputation with Generations 3DS and Sonic 4. From 2003 to 2010 IMO they were the best thing about the franchise.
     
  14. Laughingcow

    Laughingcow

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    It's not "like", that's exactly what happened with Nights: Journey into Dreams. Iizuka wanted to make it for the Xbox but big bad sega said: No, put it on the Wii!

    From a business standpoint, that may have been the right thing (as the Wii was such hot shit at the time) but the quality suffered for the sake of making $$$
     
  15. Overlord

    Overlord

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    Generations 3DS isn't a bad game. Sonic 4 is, and that would be the one that clinched it if anything.
     
  16. TheKazeblade

    TheKazeblade

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    They also did Lost World 3DS in 2013, but to be fair I forgot about that one too.

    I honestly don't think it was Sonic 4 that shook Sega's trust in the dev or anything like that. If anything, it was probably Sega's fairly early move away from handheld gaming to transition to mobile devices and consoles/PC exclusively. I don't really know where Dimps would fit in with Sega's current Sonic ecosystem without actively choosing them over Sonic Team or the Mania Team for a console release and Hardlight has proven to be extremely successful in the mobile sphere so I doubt we'd see a replacement there.
     
  17. MH MD

    MH MD

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  18. Naean

    Naean

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    I think that a combination of Sonic 4 Episode I and Sonic Lost World 3DS resulted in SEGA dropping Dimps. Sonic 4 Episode I left a bitter taste in many people's mouths, and while Sonic 4 Episode II did improve graphics and physics slightly, it had its own pacing problems, and was overall obviously too little too late. I suspect that the mixed-to-negative reception and underperforming sales are why the planned Episode III was canned.

    Sonic Lost World 3DS shits the bed hard after Windy Hill, as Dimps thought it was a great idea to introduce large and incredibly tedious, boring and repetitive levels which way outstay their welcome, requiring ridiculous time to complete each level. It doesn't help that the other version of Sonic Lost World has mixed reception as well due to its gameplay style, so the 3DS version having that gameplay style on top of further issues is like vinegar in the wound.

    Despite SEGA dropping Dimps, they would later go on to release Sonic Forces, so it's funny for me to think that they disbanded association with Dimps for "quality control". Sigh.
     
  19. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

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    Eh, I personally don't like it. IMO it looks visually unpolished, some of the music (specifically Classic Emerald Coast and Tropical Resort) is hardly any different from the originals, and it barely celebrates Sonic's portable history even though that's how it was advertised. There was plenty of material (the Game Gear, Sonic Advance, and Sonic Rush Adventure) they could've worked with, but of the game's seven levels, only three actually appeared on a handheld device, and only one was actually a handheld-exclusive. Its bosses are also an embarrassment, if you ask me.
     
  20. Overlord

    Overlord

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    I did pick up some of those points at the time, but I still don't believe it's a bad game overall.
     
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