The younger fandom, and how they learned from exactly none of our mistakes.

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Josh, Jan 6, 2020.

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  1. Josh

    Josh

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    So, can we talk about this growing, angry, very LOUD portion of the fandom that's been making more and more noise lately?

    This thread is the most extreme case I've seen, advocating for LITERAL GATEKEEPING: https://twitter.com/RGamer19/status/1213574779900506119

    And while this video is a lot more nuanced than that, it seems to have been the catalyst that ignited the most recent wave of this sentiment:


    To sum it up, y'know how Aquova once quipped, "Finally, Sonic is edgy again!" That is now unironically what a vocal part of the fandom seems to want. It's to the point now that when I post on Twitter, _liking Sonic Colors_ is seen as a controversial take.

    Of course, there's nothing wrong with liking the series for different reasons. I mean, before it was even five years old, Sonic had already taken on a tremendous variety of tones, styles, and characterizations. Fleeetway, SatAM, AoStH, SegaSonic... all of these were the introduction to the series for different fans. Even Oshima's original design was filtered through Sega of America. Contrary to what Metal said, there was NEVER only one Sonic.

    So to proclaim, basically, "I think it's time for us to start trying to bully other Sonic fans out of the fandom if they don't appreciate the series in the CORRECT WAY, and we can ascertain that because Yuji Naka tweeted a thing," strikes me as... well, depressingly kinda familiar.

    All this consternation about how lame Sonic is now and how he's being marketed to KIDS at the expense of the REAL FANS is, I'm sure a lot of people here remember, the exact same shit some fans OUR age were saying 15-plus years ago. It's just back then, we were saying it about Heroes, or Shadow, or SONIC & THE BLACK KNIGHT (which is now apparently the last good Sonic game, just like Sonic 3 used to be.) The point is, when we were younger, some of us were crying, "Those aren't the REAL Sonic!" about the VERY TITLES that are now being held up by the younger crowd as "the real Sonic."

    "What is Sonic supposed to be?" is an incredibly subjective question, and for most people, it's going to come down to what they grew up with. Arguments like, "This is what Naka intended!" strike me as inherently fallacious not only because Sonic was designed by committee and intended to have alternate regional continuities from the beginning, but also because, to draw a comparison, I'm quite sure that Into the Spider-verse is not precisely what Stan Lee had in mind when conceptualizing Spider-man. And actually, Spider-man's a great example of another character that persists across a wide variety of tonally-clashing continuities. Long-running media franchises are not exclusively auteur pieces. Look at Doctor Who for another example. It's been sci-fi, sci-fantasy, an adventure show, more military, more action-heavy, all depending on who the Doctor is and more importantly, who the showrunner is.

    Sonic is perhaps the best example in the gaming industry of a character whose appeal has carried through a wide variety of styles, canons, and universes. The breadth of Sonic as a franchise is one of my favorite things ABOUT it, and I wish fans were more apt to celebrate that, or at least RESPECT that other fans enjoy different things about it.
     
  2. Skyler

    Skyler

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    The next audtion
    The true final form of the Sonic Cycle.
     
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  3. Aerosol

    Aerosol

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    Not where I want to be.
    Sonic (?): Coming summer of 2055...?
    I saw that video a little while ago and it made me smile (a tough feat these days).

    Sega truly has their work cut out for them now. They seemingly have no idea how to create a good Sonic game without pandering to a fanbase, and now they're even more fucked if they pander to the wrong one.

    The next few years will be interesting.
     
  4. SuperSnoopy

    SuperSnoopy

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    I certainly don't advocate for gatekeeping... or being a cunt. Nobody should behave like a cunt. Ever.

    On the other hand...
    It seems like we're reaching a point where the Adventure era of games are finally getting some recognition. That's the stuff I've dreamed of ever since I started exploring all these online gaming communities years ago as a wee lad. 3D Sonic games were universally hated back then, and the only ones that got love are the one I couldn't resonate with (Colours and Gens, ect.)
    But now people are celebrating these old games again! They miss games with an actual plot! Shit, even that overrated piece of junk Colours is getting what it deserves!(Really mean spirited, I'm just kidding. Colours is fine)

    Growing up watching Sonic X every day, "edgy Sonic" will always be my favorite version of the character, so seeing the self aware 4th wall breaking version of him we have today is disappointing.
    But as Josh said, the exact same thing happened for you guys when Sonic went from a mute badass to a "toocool4school" teenager spewing catchphrases and doing breakdance:V I'm well aware of that, and I'm certainly not saying Adventure Sonic is the "true" version of the character or anything. It's MY Sonic though, and I miss him a lot.

    So yeah, I can't lie and say I don't appreciate the attention Adventure Sonic is getting nowadays. Even if it's by a bunch of salty fans doing the exact same shit the Classic fanbase was doing until Gens.

    Now where the fuck is Sonic Adventure 3?
     
  5. Nova

    Nova

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    There was a recent thread on SSMB about whether Generations and Colours are now considered bad games and the consensus among members there seemed to be that they were never that good to begin with, and that the Adventure series should be the template for 3D Sonic games instead.

    :doge: ok zoomers
     
  6. Laura

    Laura

    Brightened Eyes Member
    I think a lot of people on SSMB like Generations, it's just that forum is very tribalistic and the most popular members dominate discussions and they all hate Boost.
     
  7. Nova

    Nova

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    That and there seems to be a general atmosphere that 'classic fans' are holding the series back and as most of those fans are more partial to Colours/Generations, they're seen as part of the problem, or at least indicative of it.
     
  8. Jason

    Jason

    *Results not lab tested. Member
    I have found on Twitter people now saying 06 is good. I'm almost entirely convinced they're being contrarians. The thing Sonic is not now is what was good to some people.

    I think what's mainly going on is people are fed up with what Colors started, specifically the new writing direction. Colors was refreshingly light. Four games later, now it's just not filling. Forces tried to take itself seriously, but it was too scatterbrained to be competent. Flynn has been giving it his best with the comics, but Sonic is a game series first and foremost.

    The teasing of the next game has already started. I wonder how this batch of fans will fall in line for the hype this time.
     
  9. Naean

    Naean

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    While I cannot speak for everyone, my feeling is that a considerable amount of people are pretty sick of seeing what Sonic Lost World started: characters from The Deadly Six, and them constantly re-appearing in other games, a viewpoint which I wholeheartedly possess. I find that they just do not fit any kind of good Sonic aesthetic at all, and as buzzphrasey as it may sound, I do agree with the perspective that they look like "Skylanders rejects".

    I understand that there appears to be a notable amount of dislike for the Wisps too, but for the most part I find them inoffensive at worst, and at least (in my opinion) their designs don't look too out-of-place next to Sonic and co', and their abilities have cool potential (Imagine mixing them with Elemental Shield abilities, that could be fun!). The Deadly Six, on the other hand, have zero redeeming qualities in my eyes; unfitting character designs with a terrible group name.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  10. Multi Battler

    Multi Battler

    real lifed to death Member
    Maybe it’s too late, but all I can say in this regard is: Don’t be a sellout, Sonic! ;_;
     
  11. JaxTH

    JaxTH

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    Jack shit.
    When was Sonic edgy in Sonic X?

    That's the thing though. Adventure and Adventure 2 were loved back then (with Sonic Adventure literally being classic Sonic in 3D) and there was no "Modern Sonic". Sonic was just Sonic. Hell, there still wasn't a Modern Sonic when Heroes and Shadow came out.

    Modern Sonic wasn't a thing until '06 came out, then got retroactively applied to Adventure onwards.

    This is why Colors was seen as a return to form. It was simplistic and charming, there were no world ending threats, and Eggman was the final boss again since...the Mega Drive games I think?

    The Wisps should have stayed with Colors, though.

    It's called Sonic '06.
     
  12. SuperSnoopy

    SuperSnoopy

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    I didn't mean Sonic himself was edgy in Sonic X, but the general attitude of the show was definitely "cool" and tried to appeal to young children/early teens, just like the Adventure games. It's important to note that the French version of the show didn't have the edits 4kids made for the US version either, we got to watch the uncensored version. Sonic X isn't the most violent show in the world, but still, mentions of death ect., were kept in.

    "You guys already have Sonic Adventure 3, it's called*:
    ◻️Sonic 06
    ◻️Shadow the Hedgehog
    ◻️Sonic World Adventure
    *pick 1(one) option"

    Can we stop with this argument? The game's name is Sonic The Hedgehog, not Sonic Adventure 3. But what me and a lot of people are really asking for is a return to the adventure playstyle, not a literal game called Sonic Adventure 3. It's pretty obvious it's never gonna happen because Sega don't do numbered sequels anymore for Sonic.
     
  13. [​IMG]

    For certain values of "edgy." It's not like when Shadow was bitch-slapping a pleading Chris Thorndyke.
     
  14. Nova

    Nova

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    With the greatest of respect, if you want a continuation of the Adventure-style gameplay and aren't looking for a literal game called Sonic Adventure 3... Well... That does fit Heroes, Shadow and 06.
     
  15. Blue Spikeball

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    15+ years ago? I remember people doing that less than 10 years ago, with green eyes Sonic. That was one of the things that prompted me to pick my avatar. In fact, I still see that attitude from old fans, albeit less frequently.

    I can vouch for this. In fact, Sonic Adventure was seen as a return to form after all the spinoffs released between S&K and SA1. The story was a sequel to S3&K, and the gameplay was seen as an evolution of the classic formula, only adapted into 3d.
     
  16. SuperSnoopy

    SuperSnoopy

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    I agree, but these games came out more than a decade ago.
    My wish is for a new adventure type game to come out nowadays. We got 4 boost games (almost) in a row, I think this style of gameplay needs to be laid to rest for a while.
     
  17. Speeps

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    This. Sonic Colors did what fans in 2010 wanted (less edgy/Sonic only/Eggman finale), then drove it into the ground to the point where we have the now opposite problem.
    Hell, I know people back in 2010 went "what" to how weirdly cheesy Sonic and Tails were talking when a cutscene from Colors popped up, but shrugged it off because 06 was still pretty fresh in everyone's mind.

    If anyone's interested here's some reactions I picked out from old posts around the time:
    But yeah, nowadays the dialogue is mainly what people are sick of. It's so cheesy now it's referencing memes in the games, which I find really embarrassing - it's like it wants that awful reputation the series has now.
    What bothers me is it's not nearly as cheesy in Japanese, there seems to be some sort of weird mandate in place for how the dialogue should be written in English and it involves Tails making daddy jokes :(
     
  18. Josh

    Josh

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    Huh, following up on Sky's quip about this being the final form of the Sonic Cycle, isn't this also cyclical?

    The Adventure games were mostly well-received on release (or in the case of SA2, most people at least liked Sonic's gameplay), and even as the Gamecube ports got raked over the coals by reviewers, most fans still defended them. Heroes came out, was visually a nostalgic throwback, but threw out everything that had worked about the Adventure formula, and lost a lot of goodwill. Then 06 tanked the reputation of the entire series, making the Adventure games look even worse as something that built toward it.

    The first three boost games were mostly well-received on release (or in the case of Unleashed, most people at least liked the day stages). Then Lost World came out, was visually a nostalgic throwback, but threw out everything the boost formula had built and lost a lot of goodwill. Then Forces tanked the reputation of at least that era, making the earlier games look even worse as something that built toward it.

    One big difference here though, and this is something I was babbling about on Twitter, is a distinct difference in focus on gameplay versus story tone.

    To someone like me, who's primarily focused on gameplay mechanics, the fact that Unleashed generally gets a free pass and COLORS is the game that started Sonic's decline seems ridiculous to me. But one of the differences between the "I want my nostalgia!" Genesis kids of 2009 versus the "I want MY nostalgia" Adventure kids of today is that the Genesis kids were, generally speaking, more concerned with gameplay and mechanics than with story and tone. Which makes sense! Story was almost a background detail in early titles. But if your first perception of the series included what would've been for kids an absolutely EPIC story, of course that's going to influence what you think the series is "supposed" to be later.

    Moreover, as a teen or young adult, you're always going to be more self-aware about enjoying things that are "for kids." To wit, I found the Sonic stories and characterizations from ~2003-2009 to be WAY cheesier and cringe-inducing than what's come in the past 10 years. Kids who grew up playing them, of course, wouldn't have seen it that way.

    I don't know, appropriately enough, I'm starting to feel like I'm going in circles here. Fandom is just inherently fascinating to me. It's fun to think about!
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2020
  19. Toasty

    Toasty

    BulbaSAUR! Member
    I would have been fine with Sonic Adventure and Friends if they didn't play like total dog shit. I didn't care what he looked like or what Tails sounded like. I'd be lying if I said it didn't bother me a little bit, but it wasn't a deal breaker for me.

    How can zoomers defend the gameplay of these games?
     
  20. Sir_mihael

    Sir_mihael

    DON'T TRUST THIS MAN Member
    It's so weird to see how these views change in reaction to what comes next.
    Much like how people say the Star Wars Prequels are now top tier films due to the backlash of the Disney trilogy. We're kind of seeing the same for Sonic now.

    Personally, if the games are good and fun to play, that's all that matters, but the tone of Modern sonic in terms of characters and attempts at having a story are all over the place. I feel like Sega swung the pendulum a bit too hard away when Colours and Lost World came out, in order to proudly declare "Look, Sonic isn't so serious anymore!". It was an extreme reaction, as they were already going in the right direction with Unleashed - but clearly not fast enough for the fans and Journalists at the time.

    So now that pendulum is all over the place, and they need it back in the sweet spot. Find what can make Modern Sonic feel 'Cool' without invoking some seventh level of fanfiction.net. I feel like Ian Flynn has sort of figured this one out, but it's hard to say.
    Either way, I just hope Sega figure something out by themselves without listening to just whichever fans scream loudest.

    (I think they just need to watch the Sonic OVA a good few times :V)

    Yes, and here's the part I tend not to speak about without people slapping me with the 'FFKKN WEEB' stick.
    The JP Script for Colours, Lost World and Forces seem a lot closer in tone to what we've had in the past without the tonal whiplash that's causing this kind of reaction. (also helps that Sonic has kept the same JP voice since Adventure).

    tl;dr - Sega need to actually steer the boat properly and have some confidence in their product, and not just react to kneejerk fan reactions and upper management trying to pander and play everything safe all at the same time. I know, easier said than done but it's kinda now or never I think.
     
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