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The Sonic the Hedgehog 4 Megathread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Scarred Sun, Apr 7, 2010.

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  1. Aerosol


    Not here. Moderator
    Not where I want to be.
    Sonic (?): Coming summer of 2055...?
    You know, if the games were exactly like the genesis games, people outside of this community would want more of that too.

    In Sega branding this game "Sonic 4", people are expecting it to play like the genesis games. That said, if they buy it and it plays like the genesis games, it meets their expectations. If it doesn't but they like it anyway, good for them. So their opinion on whether or not the physics being correct is irrelevant. It doesn't matter. They'll enjoy it regardless.

    Here's the thing though. People INSIDE the community will not enjoy it. These are the people that Sega says they are trying to appease. The so-called "old school fans". It is stupefyingly easy to appease us. You want to know how Sega could make us happy?

    By using this damn thing.

    Boom. People that buy it thinking it's a genesis-style game are happy, and people who want nothing less than a genesis style game are happy. The people that aren't going to like it because it's a genesis style game aren't going to like what it is now anyway. This game is genesis enough to turn away the boost happy kids.
  2. Tiranno


    Steveosaurus Rex Member

    I want that Sega...
  3. Overlord


    Now playable in Smash Bros Ultimate Moderator
    Long-term happiness
    Here's the thing - you're generalising the community. I played Sonic 4 at SoS and while not S3&K by ANY means it is STILL a fun an entertaining game that even with Advance/Rush physics is going to be largely enjoyed by most of the community - it's a vocal minority that is making all the noise about ZOMG TEH WURST GAEM EVER - some points being valid, others not so much (I'm sick of people whining on about "dying cats" and speed boosters, for example).

    Sonic 4 Episode 1's physics engine can be improved, yes, as can some gameplay elements. It still doesn't mean it's a terrible game, despite said vocal minority (most of whom, I note with amusement, haven't even PLAYED the damn game at all).
  4. plushifoxed


    la gis sulva za celow Oldbie
    What, Pikachu in a Sombrero?
  5. MarkoMan


    In memory of Dreds... Member
    Queens, NY
    Sonic 2 Turbo
    well, this is sad.
    but it's better to know that the physics for the most part won't be getting phixed rather than waiting for the game to come out in hopes of a physics phix and it not being done.

    personally, I'm at ease now.

    I think that has more to do with the environment of the video game industry rather than Sega's ability to do it.
  6. Cinossu


    London, UK
    Sonic the Hedgehog Extended Edition
    You want Pikachu in a sombrero? So do I. (lawl) EDIT: ninja'd :<

    So, Sonic 4 is getting no major physics engine changes. Is this really such a huge surprise, considering the physics engine is what makes the game run in the first place? The levels and assets have been designed with this in mind, and any "major changes" would probably turn things unplayable enough to have to recreate things. ie. waste of time, money and resources.

    The only thing that'd make things nice would be a change to the rolling physics to be more like the originals. Less rolling friction pls.

    Other than that, really wasn't expecting anything major here. Yes, this game is "for us", and yes this is "disappointing" "for us", but deal with it. No use bitching about it.

  7. Ritz


    Subhedgehog Member
    I wouldn't have spent money on this game if it emulated the classic physics to the letter, right down to jumping from the apex of loops for a speed boost. This is all anyone seems to be harping on right now, but it's far from the game's main issue; Sonic 4 is Sonic 1 and 2 with a quarter of the content, shittier graphics and deliberately poor level design from a man who clearly knows little of his craft (and probably only wound up in his position through sheer happenstance on account of an overseer even less competent). This game doesn't deserve to be bought if I'm going to have just as much fun playing the original games for the umpteenth time.
  8. RubyEclipse


    Works at Squar Inix Member
    Often times, the campaign as a whole dictates that certain things have to be announced on specific dates, that X publication gets an exclusive first, or that certain things can't be revealed until key points. It should be very obvious that we wanted people to be excited about Needlemouse - just as every game company does with every single game they make. I was just as excited to hear the game was coming, and that I'd even have the chance to work on it. That said, there's a difference between this excitement and how open a company is with their fans on key issues.

    I warned of those consequences because they most definitely were just that - if not from SEGA, then from Microsoft. Remember that it wasn't as much about the details as it was claims to release a stolen early build of the game, which is extremely punishable by law. We could have easily left videos up, sure, but being that they don't represent the final game, we don't want people to form negative opinions based on things that aren't finished. It was a lot more work, but it was work that I think will be worth it when people do finally see what the completed game is like.

    There's also a difference between wanting to improve a game and knowing realistically that rebuilding every single aspect of it from the ground up is not possible, as was the case with our added months of development time. Changing the physics for the entire game (and subsequently level design across the board) did not take a backseat - it was looked at in the spotlight, examined, and only then determined that it was not possible to adjust to a major extent, given what it would require on a grander scale.

    But I'll take it a step further. I think the biggest things we have changed - like Lost Lab Act II, among others - are some of the most important things that needed attention in the game. I say that having played this game from early build to semi-final build, having collected all seven chaos emeralds, and having been right there fighting from the beginning for many of the things people on this forum would like to see. Physics are very important to me, but even the best physics in the world mean nothing if the game isn't fun and enjoyable. Our biggest goal was that: making sure that the game was fun in every stage, from start to finish.

    More responses to other posts coming in just a minute. :)
  9. Mad Echidna

    Mad Echidna

    Gone Oldbie
    I think the thing that baffels a lot of us is this: Why the heck didn't you guys use accurate physics in the first place? I mean clearly it's well within your (SEGA's) rights to make any kind of game you like, but it makes ZERO logical sense to put all this effort into marketing it as a proper sequel to Sonic 3 which it resembles the "classic" games so loosely!

    It seems like the general consensus for a long time now, even prior to Project Needlemouse, is that Takahashi Iezuka is not the right man for the job when classic Sonic game play is in question. I remember the first time I played Sonic Rivals on the PSP, I logged in to the Sonic Retro IRC and asked around "this game seems like it had real potential to be a great classic style game, why the heck did they make it into a racing game." The unanimous response? "Iezuka screwed it up." Now I accept that rumors are rumors, but everything I've ever heard about that man boils down to this: He is stubborn, opinionated, and screws up every project he touches with stupid gimmicks.

    That's the core of my frustration really, how we keep having all these "this game was almost good till Iezuka got his hands on it" incidents. I don't know how involved he was with Sonic 06, but that's another great example after Sonic Rivals/"Lightning" of a game that looked really good in early development but generally turned out to be a total abortion.
  10. Rockman Zero

    Rockman Zero

    Hello there, my little friend. Member
    Videos for Hellfire Commentaries.
    Ruby, I'm curious. Seeing how Sonic 4: Episode 1 is nearly half a rehash (Casino Street and Lost Labyrinth look the most original), what should we expect to see in episode 2? Will there be more original content created for episode 2? Or should we expect more reused bosses and content taken from the original games? + - Because Metal Sonic is show in the ending, so I expect there to be reused content from Sonic CD  
  11. Mad Echidna

    Mad Echidna

    Gone Oldbie
    While I'd certainly like to hear what Ruby has to say about that, I think that Ken Barlogh has mentioned many times that Ep 1 one is the "intro" Ep and it will start to get interesting from there
  12. Ravenfreak


    I dunno what I should put here. Tech Member
    O'Fallon Mo
    Hacking Sonic Drift, Writer at Sonic Cage Dome
    But if the game has extremely bad physics to the point where it's noticeable, and broken the gameplay would be ruined. :\ Right now, the physics are bearable, but it'd be nice to see them tweaked more. Also, thank you for keeping us informed on everything. :) And I for one would love to see the site updated for the slight changes with the music.
  13. RubyEclipse


    Works at Squar Inix Member
    First, take a step back and realize that you're making some very sweeping generalizations here. I have been to almost every game show that Sonic 4 has appeared at, from Seattle to London to Los Angeles, and I've even had many community members on forums like this one play it and then tell me they thought it was very good. Consistently, when people get their hands on it and play it, we get a really positive response.

    Your own opinion does not constitute an entire community, just as this forum does not constitute the entirety of the oldschool Sonic community. Each are important parts, and all should be treated with equal respect, but be careful to avoid those massive generalizations or the thinking that every single older Sonic fan out there agrees with your viewpoints.

    I am aware of the fan created physics guide - Tweaker and SS linked me to it long ago. I was very impressed by it and even passed it along internally. As I've mentioned, it wasn't that we didn't want to look at big updates to the physics, but simply that we couldn't implement them, given the time and the resources allotted during the dev extension.

    Also, it is not stupefyingly easy to make some fans happy - trust me. ;) If we give you a game just like the classics, someone will inevitably complain that there's nothing new. If we make a game with something new it, someone will inevitably complain that it's not exactly like the classics. The circle just keeps on looping from there.

    I am very hopeful though that both old fans and new fans alike will be able to have fun playing through the game when it releases. Everything we're seeing at the shows - like last weekend's PAX - is pointing in that direction, and those are actually still the E3 builds. Personally, I'm still quite optimistic, but I realize that not everyone will be happy 100% of the time - with opinions that vary, this is a given.

    I do also realize there are a great many of you lurkers out there who are holding your judgment until you play it - or are actually in favor of the many changes we have made and can't wait to try the game. On forums like these it's often scary to jump in and offer opinions that go against the flow, but I thank you guys nonetheless for all your support and the messages you send over. You make it worth it!
  14. Blue Blood

    Blue Blood

    E1 isn't out yet, so talk of E2 won't be happening yet. That spoiler you mentioned shouldn't be known to any of us yet even.

    It's true what you say though Mad Echidna, why the game didn't have classic-like physics in the first place is a mystery. Changing the game now is a big and unmanageable task, fair enough, but such drastic changes needn't have been necessary if everything was as it should have been.
  15. dsrb


    Good to have this confirmed.

    I do want to commend you for making the effort to listen to and update fans, and I suppose Sega for having a community rep at all. I think this was asked and probably answered a while ago, but how often do devs put forward community reps or whatever?
  16. Mad Echidna

    Mad Echidna

    Gone Oldbie
    Oh hey by the way Ruby, I heard that the build shown at PAX was still the E3 build, is that true? If so that's especially interesting as people enjoyed it without the recent tweaks.
  17. Cinossu


    London, UK
    Sonic the Hedgehog Extended Edition
    eeeee.. this is a whopper right here.

    If you give us a game just like the classics, but as a sequel would be back in the day with new levels, music, etc. I very much doubt you would hear any complaints whatsoever. We don't want "classic" as in actual stages and music, we mean in terms of gameplay.

    Case in point for this? Megaman 9 and 10. NES-style, a homage to the older "classic" series. I have never heard a single complaint about them (except for mayhaps the difficulty, but that's not the point).

    People, and yes "old-school" fans too, might very well be saying that this is "very good". But if "very good" is what you want out of this then I am very disappointed in where your sights are set. I'd want "awesome", "Sonic as it should be", and "give. me. this. now"s.

    I think this is "very good" from what I've seen. But "awesome"? "Sonic as it should be"? No way.

    EDIT: Also, you talk about "sweeping generalizations", yet that quote up there is one huge doozy.
  18. Spanner


    The Tool Member
    United Kingdom
    Sonic Hacking Contest
    What SEGA don't realise is that they marketed this game wrongly. If they called the game something else other than Sonic the Hedgehog 4, things would be different and there wouldn't be as much rage over shit because it could be treated as a larger-size version of Sonic Advance.

    However, Iizuka thought that it'd be great to call the game Sonic 4 and let a bunch of monkeys who have no idea how to program properly (Dimps) and a guitar guy who gets praised too much for shit he didn't even work on (Senoue) to produce this game and in the end it's playing Green Hill Zone all over again but with boosters and paper mache badniks. Oh and rather working on a huge physical release with many zones and such, it's in episodic releases with the intent of the first episode producing feedback which will most likely be ignored because according to Ken Balough, SEGA are only looking for the "right feedback". This game has had so much fucking time to fix the physics but Dimps have no idea how to implement decent programming so are just hiding it even though players are going to meet the bad physics from time to time. Dimps are an incompetant group and SEGA should've let a branch of Sonic Team work on this. Hell, why don't you make a new branch with talented programmers who actually know how to program a 2D game instead of outsourcing?

    You know RubyEclipse, don't you feel that some things should be different? How about that silly level select menu which essentially lets you do whatever the fuck you want to after completing SHZ1. Classic Sonic games were about "progression" and not "choice". I appreciate that you've actually done something to the music, but how do I know that it's still going to sound bad and still be accompanied with wrong sound effects and a sped up level track for speed shoes which would be redundant if there were good programmers around? Does Japan give a shit about this franchise any more? A lot of fan content is being produced in the western world and some day, maybe a "Classic Division" needs to be made that isn't in Japan or anywhere near it and can hire competent programmers like for example, The Taxman.

    I can see why things have shifted from "waa physics" to "Fire Iizuka", because the guy doesn't have a clue what to do and the only reason why he's head of Sonic Team is because the others bailed out. If Yuji Naka was still around he would have shit a better product that could be compared to Sonic 4 instead of what we've got here. Even some talented fans can produce a better game than what Sonic Team have tried to do in terms of a 2D Sonic game.

    Because of this name the game has, people have anticipated for great things to happen and to get the sequel that they have waited for years, except it's not the way that they would have wanted it. Would someone dream of uncurling? Why don't you reply to this for once, I'd like your input on this.
  19. glem3


    I really am greatful that you're coming here to explain this to us. I know a lot of people think it's as simple as recreating the genesis physics, without realising that that would mean the entire GAME would need to change in terms of level design and more.

    However, what I think you should "pass up", if you still can, is these 2 things. Although I'm sure it may be too late to change anything like this. These things would NOT change the flow of the game, or the level design.

    1. Make it so sonic can't stand on walls. Allowing the character to spindash near the top of a steep hill should not be included. This wouldn't change how the levels play other than not allowing players to skip parts of the level.

    2. Have sonic stay in a ball when he rolls off an edge. Admittedly, this could change a bit of the pacing. I know that you uncurl to promote use of the homing attack. However, bouncing on enemies without the homing attack after a roll should be an option. I'm sure something like this wouldn't be too difficult to change.
  20. Slingerland


    Hechoeg Frat
    Sonic Mania
    Nice assumption.

    You're talking about us making generalizations about the game, but you're making just as many, unfortunately.
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