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The Sonic the Hedgehog 4 Megathread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Scarred Sun, Apr 7, 2010.

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  1. RubyEclipse

    RubyEclipse

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    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is pretty hilarious, we have a PR guy from a video game company telling people to not get excited about their game.

    This reminds me of the time this guy working at a hardware store talked me out of buying a multimeter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'm not a member of the PR team - I'm part of our Community team. I want you to be excited for Sonic 4, but I want you to be excited for it because of what it means for the future of 2D Sonic games on consoles, and not because you're hoping for a game that plays exactly like the originals in every way, shape, and form.

    My job is to be honest, to tell people what to expect, and to unite the passion that fans do have in ways that can make our games, and series as a whole, better. And already, there are many, many people out there who love Sonic 4 and can't wait to play the full game. We could easily stop there, but I think it's worth reaching out to communities like this one and keeping you guys in the loop too - even if it's not always every point you'd like to hear.

    I believe that honesty is more important than fleeting hype. While such hype might drive a few sales in the short term, honesty is the foundation that will build and grow an entire series in the long run. That kind of respect and openness to our fans is something that I think very few companies do right, and something I hope we at SEGA can continue to expand.
     
  2. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    <!--quoteo(post=502793:date=Sep 8 2010, 01:13 PM:name=RGamer2009)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RGamer2009 @ Sep 8 2010, 01:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=502793">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=502787:date=Sep 8 2010, 05:07 PM:name=Cooljerk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cooljerk @ Sep 8 2010, 05:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=502787">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ruby, I do not envy your job at all :v:

    Question about the console versions of Sonic 4 (specifically the wii and PS3 versions) - will they be 100% playable without motion controls? I know the infamous mine cart stages are gone, but can you play the special stages without using tilt? As in, can I completely play the game, interacting with absolutely everything, without ever having to use tilt?

    This sounds like an odd request, but there is significant meaning behind it - I have a Sega Saturn USB controller that I love to use with my PS3, and playing Sonic 4 with that baby is going to get my nostalgia juices flowing so hard. It is without a doubt the way I'll be playing Sonic 4 on my first go-through, so I need to know if there will be an option to turn off tilt completely. By the same stroke, is there any way you could map the non-tilt segments to the d-pad rather than the shoulder buttons? The sega saturn pad maps the shoulder buttons oddly (I.e. L is L1, and R is L2, Z is R1 and C is R2).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I want to do that SO BAD.

    But yes I believe the motion controls can be disabled.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I'd love to hear a quote from someone at Sega about this... hint hint ruby...
     
  3. dsrb

    dsrb

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    <!--quoteo(post=502793:date=Sep 8 2010, 10:13 PM:name=RGamer2009)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RGamer2009 @ Sep 8 2010, 10:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=502793">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=502787:date=Sep 8 2010, 05:07 PM:name=Cooljerk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cooljerk @ Sep 8 2010, 05:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=502787">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Question about the console versions of Sonic 4 (specifically the wii and PS3 versions) - will they be 100% playable without motion controls? I know the infamous mine cart stages are gone, but can you play the special stages without using tilt? As in, can I completely play the game, interacting with absolutely everything, without ever having to use tilt?
    …is there any way you could map the non-tilt segments to the d-pad rather than the shoulder buttons?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->yes I believe the motion controls can be disabled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The leaked videos show that the Special Stage opens with an introductory text box that tells the player to control the maze with LT and RT (360).

    I very much doubt tilt control will be mandatory (if present at all).
     
  4. glem3

    glem3

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    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think so. Uncurling is a big issue, that prevents you from blasting through the stages in ball form (after all, Sonic should have PINBALL physics), and there are several acceleration issues you are overlooking. How Sonic behaves on slopes, how his momentum is magically lost all the time, it's all wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I don't really consider uncurling part of the physics. All that has to be changed is the animation so it's the ball, right? And allow you to damage enemies from there. His momentum being "magically lost" is due to letting go of the D pad, which is a game flaw but not an actual physics problem. And they never said they wouldn't fix the D-pad stopping error, they said they'd fix that.
     
  5. jasonchrist

    jasonchrist

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    <!--quoteo(post=502798:date=Sep 8 2010, 10:17 PM:name=RubyEclipse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RubyEclipse @ Sep 8 2010, 10:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=502798">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is pretty hilarious, we have a PR guy from a video game company telling people to not get excited about their game.

    This reminds me of the time this guy working at a hardware store talked me out of buying a multimeter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    and not because you're hoping for a game that plays exactly like the originals in every way, shape, and form.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You're making us out to be awkward little nitpickers who are impossible to please. While we're on the subject of honesty, people aren't mad because of slight deviations from the classic formula here and there, they're mad because the game plays absolutely nothing like the classics.
     
  6. Aquaslash

    Aquaslash

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    <!--quoteo(post=502798:date=Sep 8 2010, 05:17 PM:name=RubyEclipse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RubyEclipse @ Sep 8 2010, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=502798">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe that honesty is more important than fleeting hype. While such hype might drive a few sales in the short term, honesty is the foundation that will build and grow an entire series in the long run. That kind of respect and openness to our fans is something that I think very few companies do right, and something I hope we at SEGA can continue to expand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    [​IMG]

    I really appreciate that response. That's the kind of honesty every company should have.

    Also, I too, would be interested in those music changes.
     
  7. glem3

    glem3

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    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're making us out to be awkward little nitpickers who are impossible to please.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Oh please. That's why many people are complaining. Not you, necessarily, but there are people out there. Saying the game plays "nothing like the classics" is being over the top. It's like saying modern sonic looks nothing like classic sonic. They have minor differences, but it's not like a completely different game or anything. It plays differently, but it's still a speedy platformer with a physics based hedgehog. That said, they are a very important part of the game. Still, they are things that most people would not notice.
     
  8. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    <!--quoteo(post=502810:date=Sep 8 2010, 04:32 PM:name=glem3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (glem3 @ Sep 8 2010, 04:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=502810">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're making us out to be awkward little nitpickers who are impossible to please.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Oh please. That's why many people are complaining. Not you, necessarily, but there are people out there. Saying the game plays "nothing like the classics" is being over the top. It's like saying modern sonic looks nothing like classic sonic. They have minor differences, but it's not like a completely different game or anything. It plays differently, but it's still a speedy platformer with a physics based hedgehog. That said, they are a very important part of the game. Still, they are things that most people would not notice.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    And using those kinds of words, the flamewar has officially begun. :specialed:

    ----

    Actually, besides the wall-sticking and forced uncurling (in both off ramps AND after a homing attack, btw); watching that video of Splash Hill put up a couple of pages back looked.. fun. The game seemed to have much better pacing and movement. The reason why though is because the player rolled on just about every steep hill possible, dodged every dashpanel and didn't spam the homing attack like every player does... you know, like most retrogoers would play the game. And honestly it looked really really fun.. just that the areas where they force you to homing attack and use dashpanels got in the way. If it wouldn't be a bother to remove most of the dashpanels I'd recommend it.. please. It really made the game have so much more flow when I watched that video.
     
  9. Aerosol

    Aerosol

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    The frustration comes from this.

    There is a perfectly accurate Sonic Physics Guide that describes, in detail, how a Sonic game should be programmed so as to be as close as possible to the classics. There are even bugfixes suggested on the Sonic Physics Guide. There are atleast 2 Genesis-perfect Sonic engines (that I know of) that are coded in a C++ or other similar languages. There are atleast half a dozen more that have been made with other pieces of software, using this guide.

    Sega has touted this as a return to the classics. Another addition in the line of the original Sonic games. But it doesn't play like it belongs in the same breath as Sonic 1, 2, or 3&K. Sega has repeatedly stated, nonstop, that this is "Sonic 4 as we imagined it". But it's not.

    If people in our community are capable of making a Genesis-perfect Sonic engine in a year or less, a team of Sega-contracted developers can do it in less time, and perhaps with even more precision. ESPECIALLY when there is a COMPLETELY accurate guide that tells you, step by step, how to do so.

    This is why people feel like Sega isn't trying. It's like failing an open book test.
     
  10. Brad

    Brad

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    <!--quoteo(post=502815:date=Sep 8 2010, 10:40 PM:name=AerosolSP)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AerosolSP @ Sep 8 2010, 10:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=502815">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The frustration comes from this.

    There is a perfectly accurate Sonic Physics Guide that describes, in detail, how a Sonic game should be programmed so as to be as close as possible to the classics. There are even bugfixes suggested on the Sonic Physics Guide. There are atleast 2 Genesis-perfect Sonic engines (that I know of) that are coded in a C++ or other similar languages. There are atleast half a dozen more that have been made with other pieces of software, using this guide.

    Sega has touted this as a return to the classics. Another addition in the line of the original Sonic games. But it doesn't play like it belongs in the same breath as Sonic 1, 2, or 3&K. Sega has repeatedly stated, nonstop, that this is "Sonic 4 as we imagined it". But it's not.

    If people in our community are capable of making a Genesis-perfect Sonic engine in a year or less, a team of Sega-contracted developers can do it in less time, and perhaps with even more precision. ESPECIALLY when there is a COMPLETELY accurate guide that tells you, step by step, how to do so.

    This is why people feel like Sega isn't trying. It's like failing an open book test.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This. Just this. ¬¬
     
  11. Hez

    Hez

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    <!--quoteo(post=502652:date=Sep 8 2010, 09:58 AM:name=Blue Blood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blue Blood @ Sep 8 2010, 09:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=502652">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=502650:date=Sep 8 2010, 03:42 PM:name=Hez)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hez @ Sep 8 2010, 03:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=502650">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ok what the fuck. You can jump into walls to break them? Wow....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    If jumping at walls to break them bugs you, then worry not. You can just run at them if that suits you better. Seriously.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    So I should ignore shit that shouldn't even be happening...is basically what you're saying? This is why these people get away with the shit they do. It's because people like you simply ignore it. "Oh hey Sonic has three arms now" "JUST IGNORE IT HE STILL COLLECTS RINGS"
     
  12. NomadTW

    NomadTW

    I ain't gotta impress you fucks. Member
    <!--quoteo(post=502815:date=Sep 8 2010, 04:40 PM:name=AerosolSP)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AerosolSP @ Sep 8 2010, 04:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=502815">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is why people feel like Sega isn't trying. It's like failing an open book test.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This, so hard.

    And if they're letting Dimps do whatever they want with the game, why didn't Dimps just use one of their Advance engines? Hell, Sonic Advance 2's engine is better than this crap. Did we ever get a proper explanation for that? I'd be interested in how they spin that one.

    Hnnng, I mad.
     
  13. Aerosol

    Aerosol

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    <!--quoteo(post=502834:date=Sep 8 2010, 05:58 PM:name=Hez)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hez @ Sep 8 2010, 05:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=502834">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=502652:date=Sep 8 2010, 09:58 AM:name=Blue Blood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blue Blood @ Sep 8 2010, 09:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=502652">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=502650:date=Sep 8 2010, 03:42 PM:name=Hez)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hez @ Sep 8 2010, 03:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=502650">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ok what the fuck. You can jump into walls to break them? Wow....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    If jumping at walls to break them bugs you, then worry not. You can just run at them if that suits you better. Seriously.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    So I should ignore shit that shouldn't even be happening...is basically what you're saying? This is why these people get away with the shit they do. It's because people like you simply ignore it. "Oh hey Sonic has three arms now" "JUST IGNORE IT HE STILL COLLECTS RINGS"
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic. Blue Blood is the last person who would say that that's okay.
     
  14. Blue Blood

    Blue Blood

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    <!--quoteo(post=502834:date=Sep 8 2010, 10:58 PM:name=Hez)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hez @ Sep 8 2010, 10:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=502834">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=502652:date=Sep 8 2010, 09:58 AM:name=Blue Blood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blue Blood @ Sep 8 2010, 09:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=502652">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=502650:date=Sep 8 2010, 03:42 PM:name=Hez)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hez @ Sep 8 2010, 03:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=502650">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ok what the fuck. You can jump into walls to break them? Wow....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    If jumping at walls to break them bugs you, then worry not. You can just run at them if that suits you better. Seriously.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    So I should ignore shit that shouldn't even be happening...is basically what you're saying? This is why these people get away with the shit they do. It's because people like you simply ignore it. "Oh hey Sonic has three arms now" "JUST IGNORE IT HE STILL COLLECTS RINGS"
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Re-read my post in a sarcastic tone. Maybe I should have noted that before. Either way, running or jumping into walls to break them is pretty stupid and it's a wonder that it's possible. I've voiced so much dislike for things in S4 that shouldn't happen, specifically Sonic's new 'ability' to stand on walls. I'm completely in the same boat as you.
     
  15. Ritz

    Ritz

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    <!--quoteo(post=502750:date=Sep 8 2010, 12:20 PM:name=Dude)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dude @ Sep 8 2010, 12:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=502750">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So are we ever getting a sonic game ever again? Or should we stop waiting? Personally I think you might be able to save this sinking ship if the engine was completely overhauled for episode 2 but even that is a stretch. This is not an attack against you in particular because I know you're pretty much powerless to do anything about it, but if SEGA is 'listening to the fans' and physics/uncurling/etc was the major complaint, and nothing is being done about this how is that listening at all?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Oh, they are listening, they just don't give a shit, which is even better! Can't blame them, right? They've gotta rush to meet their new deadline or they won't get to reap the Christmas profits. Not like there's any sense in polishing a game when they'll be raking in just as much cash on brand name recognition alone. They'll just keep on listening and laughing all the way to the bank.

    <!--quoteo(post=502762:date=Sep 8 2010, 12:41 PM:name=Tweaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweaker @ Sep 8 2010, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=502762">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=502761:date=Sep 8 2010, 04:37 PM:name=RGamer2009)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RGamer2009 @ Sep 8 2010, 04:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=502761">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Please stop speaking for everyone. You're not this community's representative; I did not hire you and neither did anyone else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I know, right? I'm sure someone here wanted speed boosters. Show of hands, anyone?
     
  16. VB.NET

    VB.NET

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    I understand everyone's annoyance in regards to how easy it should have been for them to follow a physics guide, but the game will still be fun. Not a Sonic 3 & Knuckles, but fun.
     
  17. TSSZNews

    TSSZNews

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    <!--quoteo(post=502798:date=Sep 8 2010, 05:17 PM:name=RubyEclipse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RubyEclipse @ Sep 8 2010, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=502798">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe that honesty is more important than fleeting hype. While such hype might drive a few sales in the short term, honesty is the foundation that will build and grow an entire series in the long run.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If you really, truly believe that, Aaron...why did it take you and your team nearly 5 months to unveil Project Needlemouse as Sonic the Hedgehog 4—something as simple as the proper name of a game? Principles of honesty dictate something like that should be the first topic of conversation. Principles of hype, on the other hand, dictate organizing a bunch of mysterious teaser trailers and God knows how many community challenges around it.

    And if you believe in honesty, when those leaks occurred earlier in the year, why did you warn of "huge consequences" to one of this site's forumers on releasing details of a game that ended up getting leaked anyway? Come to think of it—when the game leaked, why did you and the company at large jump into damage control in the first place? <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Aside from being told to by your superiors, I'm sure.</span> You could have just as easily let the game video and playthroughs at the time speak for themselves, because aside from LLZ 2, it stands to reason very little that's generally significant or of value to most of these fans will change from that build. That would have been the utmost form of honesty, right?

    I think there's a difference between believing in honesty, and being made honest. I have to say, given the furor the leaks unleashed, that despite the admiration I have for you to be more upfront these days, Aaron, it still falls into the latter. Your core mission is still hype, IMO, and I don't think you did yourself or Sega any favors by essentially confirming something as important as how Sonic moves is taking a backseat—perhaps not to you, but in the eyes of the devs.
     
  18. Aerosol

    Aerosol

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    The irritation is coming from Sega's attitude to this whole thing. They seem so dead certain that this is what we wanted when it really fucking isn't. Fun it may be, but don't market it and preach it as something we've been waiting for for years. It's NOT. It's like if your mum tells you she bought that game you've always wanted, and it turns out its the crappy DS port of the actual game you wanted. Yes, it may still be fun, but its NOT what you wanted, and you'll feel a little disappointed that your mum didn't really know what you wanted after all.


    You know what I wouldn't mind? If this game was delayed even further till next year, with SPECIFIC promises from Sega. Promises like:

    A reduction in the use of speed boosters and other non-level specific gimmicks
    A complete physics overhaul that matches the classic games
    The required level design changes after such physics overhauls

    Then, maybe, just maybe, the game will be "Sonic 4 as we imagined it".
     
  19. MegaDash

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    Hey Ruby, is the Sonic 4 engine explicitly built using the same physics engine from the Sonic Rush games, or is it something that's "built from the ground up" but happens to be similar? I'm not sure that was made clear.

    I kinda respect this community for pointing things out that few outside of the hardcore fandom would care to notice. It's too prone to the miserably extreme, but I respect the insistence to reiterate what you guys want in a Sonic game and laying out several examples of it being done or how to do it. It's kinda sad, but then every fandom has that desire and fervor for the ideal at it's core, and you only feel as bad as you make yourself to be. Having said that, I'm all for SEGA taking more advantage of the resources Sonic Retro offers, especially to the end of having Sonic 4 look, sound, and play exactly like the classics instead of mostly. Hell, you know what would be sick? Take a page from Monkey Island Special Edition and have a toggle button between 16-bit graphics and modern-day graphics. But hell, we all know that would only work if they stick to the Genesis physics and drop the Rush conventions.

    But then let's not forget the inevitable grain of salt that few people outside our little community will take umbrage to Sonic 4's "Rush-I-ness". They'll love it and enjoy the game when it comes out. And you know what? They'll probably want more. I envy those guys for simply having a good time with something good other than making a mountain of disappointment out of it. It's hard for me to choose between the nerd and the gamer in that instance, especially when I'm aware I'll most likely enjoy the game despite its departures from Genesis-era programming and design.

    It's a nearly impossible balancing act to mediate both kinds of people. It's simpler to choose one or the other, but damn it if I insist on sitting on the fence. I'll enjoy Sonic 4 when it comes out, and I'll both criticize and praise it once I've played it. I just fear I've made too much out of a simple fucking game.

    So, here's how I see it: I'm interested in how adapting the strict physics of the Genesis games could make Sonic 4 as a series better (I.e. I like imagining good things), but I'm through holding on to the notion that it's a piece of shit when it doesn't. I'm through "wanting" a Genesis Sonic game, and am willing to settle for a fun 2D Sonic game that's better than Rush. If and when I get that, I'll let my verdict be known about its quality. Until then, I'll drop in occasionally to see what nuggets of wisdom you guys have to impart.
     
  20. SomeSortOfRobot

    SomeSortOfRobot

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    <!--quoteo(post=502848:date=Sep 8 2010, 05:16 PM:name=VB.NET)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VB.NET @ Sep 8 2010, 05:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=502848">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I understand everyone's annoyance in regards to how easy it should have been for them to follow a physics guide, but the game will still be fun. Not a Sonic 3 & Knuckles, but fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I think we can all agree that it would have never surpassed S3&K, even if they wanted to.
     
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