Special Stage Development

Discussion in 'Sonic 2 HD (Archive)' started by Canned Karma, Mar 22, 2010.

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  1. Hamneggs

    Hamneggs

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    <!--quoteo(post=494291:date=Aug 21 2010, 05:45 PM:name=SonikkuForever)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SonikkuForever @ Aug 21 2010, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=494291"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's an <a href="http://www.sonic-cult.org/flh/sonic2specialflash/" target="_blank">online flash game</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I actually think we already have the background <a href="http://sanik.hacking-cult.org/inker/inking.php?section=SpecialStage&entity=SpecialStageArt&inking=1269638165" target="_blank">done</a>...
    Interesting find though, at least to me...
     
  2. Dude

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    <!--quoteo(post=474295:date=Jul 1 2010, 08:02 PM:name=Synergy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Synergy @ Jul 1 2010, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=474295"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As quite a few people seemed quite fond of the idea in principle, I took a brief detour into seeing how transparency would look if it were to be applied. This also shows the previously-discussed opacity fade at the end to mask the draw distance, along with the suggestion of setting the default draw distance to the "far" setting from the prototype; new pieces at the end fade gradually into view, so no more unexpected popping into existance.

    <img src="http://www.alaunus.com/s2tube/tube_trans.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    Transparency test aside, it also still uses the distance scaling on the blobs as you can see, though I'll convert the blobs and decorations to just stay a constant size and fade in along with the tube as it looks more natural. However, I think the scaler should be kept (and set to an appropriate distance) for rings and mines because with the added draw distance, you can see them coming on a straight stretch from miles off. On a similar note about ease of seeing distant items or not, with transparency you can see even more such as roughly were items are around an oncoming bend, which may or may not be considered a good thing: just things to mull over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Is this a running program or just a render?
     
  3. Canned Karma

    Canned Karma

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    It's a running program. Synergy has a functional engine he's working to refine currently.
     
  4. theocas

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    <!--quoteo(post=474295:date=Jul 2 2010, 02:02 AM:name=Synergy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Synergy @ Jul 2 2010, 02:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=474295"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As quite a few people seemed quite fond of the idea in principle, I took a brief detour into seeing how transparency would look if it were to be applied. This also shows the previously-discussed opacity fade at the end to mask the draw distance, along with the suggestion of setting the default draw distance to the "far" setting from the prototype; new pieces at the end fade gradually into view, so no more unexpected popping into existance.

    <img src="http://www.alaunus.com/s2tube/tube_trans.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    Transparency test aside, it also still uses the distance scaling on the blobs as you can see, though I'll convert the blobs and decorations to just stay a constant size and fade in along with the tube as it looks more natural. However, I think the scaler should be kept (and set to an appropriate distance) for rings and mines because with the added draw distance, you can see them coming on a straight stretch from miles off. On a similar note about ease of seeing distant items or not, with transparency you can see even more such as roughly were items are around an oncoming bend, which may or may not be considered a good thing: just things to mull over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    God, I think that look pretty nice so far! Keep the good work up!
     
  5. Dude

    Dude

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    <!--quoteo(post=494360:date=Aug 21 2010, 10:36 PM:name=Canned Karma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Canned Karma @ Aug 21 2010, 10:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=494360"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a running program. Synergy has a functional engine he's working to refine currently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That's excellent! Has any 3d artwork been established aside from the obvious rings? Oh and I'd start adding lights to that scene if I were him, everything's a little bland.
     
  6. steveswede

    steveswede

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    <!--quoteo(post=494585:date=Aug 22 2010, 08:36 PM:name=Dude)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dude @ Aug 22 2010, 08:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=494585"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=494360:date=Aug 21 2010, 10:36 PM:name=Canned Karma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Canned Karma @ Aug 21 2010, 10:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=494360"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a running program. Synergy has a functional engine he's working to refine currently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That's excellent! Has any 3d artwork been established aside from the obvious rings? Oh and I'd start adding lights to that scene if I were him, everything's a little bland.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Don't think so at the moment. Synergy's first release is just a proof of concept to show how it worked. And boy does it work great. It's going to look bland until the artists start properly working on it. There have been a bunch of concept pictures made up already. Just look a few pages back to see what was mocked up if you haven't seen them already.
     
  7. Canned Karma

    Canned Karma

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    Yes. I have a model of Sonic created in Softimage a few months ago that I'll be refining and rigging with scanline's help. As for lights, I'd like Synergy to give us more information on that; particularly if the engine supports dedicated lighting or just ambient lighting.
     
  8. Hamneggs

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    Hmm, a full TOD cycle in Endless Mode.
     
  9. Ayu Tsukimiya

    Ayu Tsukimiya

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    Would the idea of having the final stages having a background that changes slightly the farther you go be out of the question? The area outside the tube would be in the air, with the clouds above everything in the distance. As you continue the tube "rises" higher and higher. Past the clouds, and eventually into space with stars everywhere when you reach the end.

    Even with no idea of how programming works I know it would be a pain to do, though. I just wanted to know if the idea sounds good and if it is worthy of the time it would take to create.
     
  10. Canned Karma

    Canned Karma

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    I'll leave it up to him to correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of Synergy's engine is that he uses an algorithm to create the background based on the diamond pattern. I'm not sure if that can be adjusted or augmented, but that's certainly an interesting idea you have.
     
  11. ah2190

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    I really like the ideas here, but somehow, whenever I try to run it, I just get a blue screen. And when I press tab, it crashes. It might be because of the computer I'm using, (as I'm currently at college) but just in case, here's the log.

    LOG: Log initialised.
    KERNEL: Registering vertex type (p3n3t2).
    KERNEL: Added handler for levels (0).
    KERNEL: Added handler for models (1).
    KERNEL: Added handler for materials (2).
    RENDER: Vertex shader did not compile, but no error was reported.
    RENDER: Vertex program did not compile.
    MATERIAL: Error initialising shader program, material load aborted.
    RESOURCE: Failed to load resource (sky.mat).
    RENDER: Vertex shader did not compile, but no error was reported.
    RENDER: Vertex program did not compile.
    MATERIAL: Error initialising shader program, material load aborted.
    RESOURCE: Failed to load resource (blob.mat).
    RENDER: Vertex shader did not compile, but no error was reported.
    RENDER: Vertex program did not compile.
    MATERIAL: Error initialising shader program, material load aborted.
    RESOURCE: Failed to load resource (blob.mat).
    PLAY: Initialising tube node.
    RENDER: Vertex shader did not compile, but no error was reported.
    RENDER: Vertex program did not compile.
    MATERIAL: Error initialising shader program, material load aborted.
    RESOURCE: Failed to load resource (blob.mat).
    PLAY: Initialising profile curve.
    PLAY: Initialising base meshes.
    PLAY: Initialising final tube mesh.
    RENDER: Vertex shader did not compile, but no error was reported.
    RENDER: Vertex program did not compile.
    MATERIAL: Error initialising shader program, material load aborted.
    RESOURCE: Failed to load resource (tube.mat).
    RENDER: Vertex shader did not compile, but no error was reported.
    RENDER: Vertex program did not compile.
    MATERIAL: Error initialising shader program, material load aborted.
    RESOURCE: Failed to load resource (ring.mat).
    RENDER: Vertex shader did not compile, but no error was reported.
    RENDER: Vertex program did not compile.
    MATERIAL: Error initialising shader program, material load aborted.
    RESOURCE: Failed to load resource (mine.mat).
    RENDER: Vertex shader did not compile, but no error was reported.
    RENDER: Vertex program did not compile.
    MATERIAL: Error initialising shader program, material load aborted.
    RESOURCE: Failed to load resource (mineSilver.mat).
    RENDER: Vertex shader did not compile, but no error was reported.
    RENDER: Vertex program did not compile.
    MATERIAL: Error initialising shader program, material load aborted.
    RESOURCE: Failed to load resource (mineRed.mat).
    RENDER: Vertex shader did not compile, but no error was reported.
    RENDER: Vertex program did not compile.
    MATERIAL: Error initialising shader program, material load aborted.
    RESOURCE: Failed to load resource (chaos.mat).

    However, I looked at the YouTube vid posted earlier, and I must say, it's looking good.
     
  12. Synergy

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    Looks like you need the latest DirectX, but as you're on a school computer that probably won't be an option. I'm working towards eliminating the dependency on D3DX by compiling the shaders offline in advance, which should alleviate some of the version problems already seen, though it's always worth making sure you're up-to-date :)
     
  13. ah2190

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    <!--quoteo(post=519434:date=Oct 19 2010, 01:09 PM:name=Synergy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Synergy @ Oct 19 2010, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=519434"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Looks like you need the latest DirectX, but as you're on a school computer that probably won't be an option. I'm working towards eliminating the dependency on D3DX by compiling the shaders offline in advance, which should alleviate some of the version problems already seen, though it's always worth making sure you're up-to-date :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Well, if I manage to get onto my computer during the next week (as it's half term next week, and it's one of the few times when I could get onto it) I'll see if I can play it then.

    But still, I can't wait to try the demo version of the Special Stages. Heck, I might even try and make a few myself when I can.

    Speaking of that, once the engine for the Special Stages has been completed, how are you going to go about making them? Will they be made exactly like the Sonic 2 counterparts, or will there be completly new ones? Although I guess the later would happen if it allows for full 360 degree loops.
     
  14. Synergy

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    The stage format isn't set in stone so I wouldn't make anything too elaborate as it won't be the exact same format in future :) It will come with the original stages which will be built using the editor, and if this is integrated into S2HD then obviously these are the ones you will play during the game. I'm not sure what the Sonic 2 HD team plans to make customisable or not, but at least as a standalone program we can then look at extra piece types and so on for the editor.
     
  15. ah2190

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    <!--quoteo(post=519457:date=Oct 19 2010, 01:52 PM:name=Synergy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Synergy @ Oct 19 2010, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=519457"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The stage format isn't set in stone so I wouldn't make anything too elaborate as it won't be the exact same format in future :) It will come with the original stages which will be built using the editor, and if this is integrated into S2HD then obviously these are the ones you will play during the game. I'm not sure what the Sonic 2 HD team plans to make customisable or not, but at least as a standalone program we can then look at extra piece types and so on for the editor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Well, I look foward to seeing this get better. It's just a shame that I'm more of a technical person than an art person, otherwise I would try and help with regards to the art style of the stages.

    But, looking at what has come before, I really like Hamneggs's idea of textured glass for the floor.
     
  16. Canned Karma

    Canned Karma

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    Textured glass is definite eye-candy, but I'm not certain it fits well with the original theme of the Special Stages. Beyond that, there's the technical concern of rendering a glass material properly. Having light interact convincingly with a transparent or translucent surface like glass is a very intensive operation for a computer, and in the interest of having the Special Stages run as smoothly as possible on a variety of systems, we'll likely opt for a solid material first.
     
  17. eX.A.K.R.

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    Hey guys, I'm new here, and I came here mainly because I wanted to contribute ideas and feedback for this Sonic 2 HD project.

    On to business: I am looking at Synergy's Special Stage concept, and while fading distance far into the background seems like a good idea at first (no more bombs popping out of nowhere to hurt you), I feel that it might change the gameplay mechanics around a bit too much. One of the reasons why some of the Special Stages are rather difficult is because you really can't see what's coming in from where, especially as the half-pipe goes on a downward slope or twists left/right. I clearly remember bombs on the bottom of the pipe at one part in the last Special Stage in Sonic 2 (the black/dark coloured one) just as it goes downward, using the element of surprise to crash right into you if you were not expecting it at all.

    Transparency is also a good idea, but it should not be too much as to let you see too far off what's coming at you, to preserve the element of surprise. Besides, too much transparency can be quite distracting in a real-world gameplay scenario. The same apply to textures; as Canned Karma also said, textures might not be in line with the original theme of the Special Stages. However, until we see a mockup it's difficult to judge whether it might be a good idea or not.
     
  18. W.A.C.

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    <!--quoteo(post=524082:date=Oct 29 2010, 09:36 PM:name=eX.A.K.R.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eX.A.K.R. @ Oct 29 2010, 09:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=524082"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Transparency is also a good idea, but it should not be too much as to let you see too far off what's coming at you, to preserve the element of surprise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Hmm... Maybe the farther away a tube is to Sonic, the less transparent it is on screen? Example: If a tube is really close to Sonic, it could be about 80% transparent where as if it's far away, it might be about 20% transparent. Not sure if transparency is a good idea but that could work.
     
  19. Synergy

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    I think I've struck a happy balance with the following: very slight transparency so that you can see the diamond background but not what's coming through upcoming corner pieces; a vertex shader that squashes distant tube vertices into a point to look more like the original (and which means corner pieces are more of a surprise); and scaling the objects so they appear only at a set distance, which allows the required reaction times on the part of the player to again be similar to the original. Once the next demo is out you can judge for yourself as it really needs to be seen in motion. :)
     
  20. ah2190

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    <!--quoteo(post=524105:date=Oct 30 2010, 05:42 AM:name=W.A.C.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (W.A.C. @ Oct 30 2010, 05:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=524105"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=524082:date=Oct 29 2010, 09:36 PM:name=eX.A.K.R.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eX.A.K.R. @ Oct 29 2010, 09:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=524082"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Transparency is also a good idea, but it should not be too much as to let you see too far off what's coming at you, to preserve the element of surprise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Hmm... Maybe the farther away a tube is to Sonic, the less transparent it is on screen? Example: If a tube is really close to Sonic, it could be about 80% transparent where as if it's far away, it might be about 20% transparent. Not sure if transparency is a good idea but that could work.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I think that it should be the reverse of this: less transparent nearby (so that you can see the full BG of the stage) but more transparent the further away it is. And, the transparencies stack when looking through more than one plane of glass, (like in the corners) so that it's harder to see what's coming up around a corner.
     
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