So I made this Ultimate Timeline Form of the games from 1991 to 2018

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by raphael_fc, Jun 8, 2020.

  1. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    Oh I see now. It makes sense indeed.
    But it seems that officially the plane that appears in Unleashed is not the original Tornado, but another plane that Tails made. At least that's what is on the wiki, I don't see much difference between the original Tornado and this one.

    I saw that in Rivals 1 Tails says he actually made another Tornado plane, which for me is the Unleashed version (but that was not clearly said anywhere).
    tornado new plane.jpg
     
  2. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

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    I always considered Rivals non-canon because it contradicts too much of what's given in Rush and '06 (Eggman Nega being from an alternate dimension, Silver's future destroyed by Iblis, etc.)
     
  3. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

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    Using retconning against my point about emeralds is very funny; you know, I consider them to be always the same set, but to have that set coexist with the 8-bit games, which is a "fix" you made, retconning is irrelevant because it's not official retconning, is yours: you forced the multi-set path, not only because standard 8-bit games keep the "always a set of six emeralds at south island" take, so they can't reunite with the seventh at west side island and the 8th, the master emerald, at angel island. And then Tails' Adventures come and our heads explode with the 6-pack of cocoa island. The use of the emeralds on the first 8-bit game plus the way they're found on those games and a lot of contrasts render them incompatible with fitting: in the first game, there are special stages that look like special stages but are bonus stages while emeralds are found in the wild; next game, no special stages, wild emeralds again; in the next two games, there are special stages but you're teleported to places that look like different zones, not alternate dimensions; and, finally, in Sonic Blast of all games, there are 16-bit style special stages.

    If Sonic 4 comes from bad future, that means Eggman never lost control of the planetoid, so he doesn't need to build Death Mk. II Mk. III (Eggman builds a lot of DE Mk. II, even if they're non-canon here), Little Planet is already that kind of base and Eggman could have just popped in. I suppose it wouldn't have looked good if Metal Sonic was rescued from a shiny happy good future, but MS was defeated the same way in both futures. Similar thing for Amy not having a second model to depict her Sonic CD memories on Sonic Adventure 1. And, seriously, Little Planet comes back every month, You could even say Sonic CD happens 10 times in the timeline and it could fit.

    While I get there's fun in doing this kind of stuff, there are so many inconsistencies and retcons there's no real reason to fit them, retconning is just another form of bad writing that can get a pass when you can't check past facts but not in cases like Sonic where we (and Sega/Sonic Team) can just watch playthroughs and read scans to double check. I prefer headcanons and fanons that use the official stuff to rewrite everything at will instead of trying to fix what the official sources did wrong. As I see Sonic games, sometimes they look like each one happens on an alternate timeline/dimension/whatever in which things happen similarly to get some sense of continuity, but, ultimately, they're self contained save for very few exceptions, probably only 2 to 3&K in a explicit way, maybe the shadow plotline.
     
  4. David The Lurker

    David The Lurker

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    I like to think that Sonic the Hedgehog is Sonic the Hedgehog.

    I know there are people who are super into the idea of Classic Sonic being separate now and forever from the modern era. Even though I enjoy the classic games more, it feels like a waste to me to so forcefully separate the two aspects of the Sonic franchise. There are plenty of things in the world of Sonic post-1994 that capture the imagination. Visual design, the characters. Heck, there are plenty of games that one can sit down and have fun with. Fragmenting the character isn't a great idea, and having a Classic/Modern split right down the middle feels counterproductive. Mario fans don't go on about how the NES Mario can't possibly be the same Mario that's in Sunshine, so why do we?

    Even if you want to embrace the idea of a split timeline, that means the Sonic in Forces still experienced every game aside from Mania. And that places Mania in some pocket universe, and that doesn't seem right. If you have a game that's as celebrated as Mania, that should be smack dab in the main continuity. That's Sonic, and he's doing Sonic things. Just like Adventure Sonic is also Sonic, and still doing Sonic things. I have some thoughts/headcannon that gets deeper into how it all could work, but I'll leave that be for now.

    Right, I quoted the two posts above because I wanted to talk about Metal Sonic, bad endings, what have you. One of the things that throws me off about these proposed timelines is that Sonic CD's bad future causes a split. Now, all the classic games have two endings - a good one, and a bad one. That's no different from Sonic CD. Yes, the bad one has an animation, but the game urges you to try again, like any Sonic game. That's not meant to be the final word on things. Why would it be?

    When you turn on Sonic CD, you're treated to the animated opening - Sonic running about, acting cool. When he makes it to Never Lake, he looks up to see Little Planet, but he doesn't see the idealized paradise he was going to explore. It's already covered in metal. The "Bad Future" is in full effect, because Eggman got there first. Yet when you start Palmtree Panic, you're not in the bad future, you're in the present. Palm trees and blue skies. The very appearance of Sonic the Hedgehog has shifted the fate of the planet. You can see the bad future if you're not careful, but it's not set anymore - even if it was clearly a mechanized monstrosity seconds before Sonic set foot on the surface. However Little Planet works, the flow of time there is not the same as it is planetside. Things can shift and rearrange by the slightest movement. When you get the good ending, and you see that Sonic wink coming from the planet? Is that the Time Stones, the planet itself, both? Who knows. But there is something going on there, and whatever that is, it only affects Little Planet. Perhaps time coexists all at once, and Sonic/Eggman/Amy can only perceive it in a linear fashion, because they are three dimensional beings trying to interpret a fourth dimensional world.

    All that is said to provide an extremely simple reason as to why Stardust Speedway is the bad future in Sonic 4 - Eggman sending something to recover Metal Sonic has shifted Little Planet's future once more. Next time we see it, it's encased in the Death Egg Mk. II. Eggman changed it's future again, regardless of the fact Sonic saved the day last time.

    Now, when it comes to Metal Sonic? Chaotix, Episode Metal, and Mania don't actually contradict the way it may look at first glance. Yes, they serve as "sequels" to Sonic 3, but so does Adventure. Or 3D Blast. Games that follow up Sonic 3, either by time or by story. When it comes to Metal Sonic's chronology, Mania did something smart with his boss fight. During the first phase, as those tiny robot Sonic's are spinning about, there are two stasis tubes on either side of Metal Sonic. Each one contains a broken version of a Metal Sonic. Where do those robots come from? Well, in Sonic CD, Metal was destroyed. He hit a wall, his face fell off. His CPU was recovered, he was rebuilt...and then Knuckles and the Chaotix destroyed him a second time. Then he's rebuilt, and we get to see Metal in R (and Fighters, if you want to include that, which I generally do). In those post-Chaotix games, Metal is never destroyed. In Fighters, they make it clear he survived. R, you just race him. Those broken Metal Sonic's? The ones from CD and Chaotix. Gasp.

    So what happens when you defeat Metal Sonic in Mania? Well, he doesn't get destroyed. He's knocked out, falls off the screen, but remains in one piece, in Stardust Speedway. And how does Metal look in Sonic 4: Episode Metal? That's right, he's in one piece. So you can have CD --> Chaotix --> Fighters --> R --> Mania --> Sonic 4 pretty easily. All in one timeline, with Metal's story being told without interruption.

    I remember back in the day, when I really wanted every Sonic game to fit in a single timeline, I would slide the Game Gear games wherever I could. You had Nack! You had more South Island! Why wouldn't you want those games to be part of it? But as time went on, it became clear that the core Game Gear titles only work in their own space. The fact most of them take place on South Island, or that there are only six emeralds, is already pretty clear that this universe doesn't play by quite the same set of rules as their 16-bit counterparts. However, the Japanese manual of Triple Trouble just seals the deal. Knuckles is presented as a stranger to Sonic and Tails. If they had already met on Angel Island, how could they meet for the first time again?

    In Sonic Rush, there is plenty of dialogue to point to the fact they are meeting for the first time, but in Sonic 06, they don't share a single exchange, right? Blaze is present the last time the two of them interact in the main campaign, but Sonic doesn't acknowledge her, and she certainly doesn't say anything to him. We know that's not the exact moment they met, but we don't get to hear their introduction to each other. Does Sonic recognize her? Or is she someone new? We don't know. Easy money is to assume Sonic doesn't know her. But it's entirely possible that he does, and they keep it on the down-low, re:Silver. Why would they do that? I have no idea. It would be weird, in a world where everyone likes to say "long time no see."

    It seems like Blaze has some knowledge, though! She thinks inquisitively on "blue hedgehogs," even though it doesn't pay off. She knows what Chaos Emeralds are. She doesn't find out that the blue hedgehog is Sonic until after Silver has realized he isn't the Iblis Trigger, so we don't get that a-ha! moment. Blaze also phases out of reality at the end of Silver's campaign, presumably to her own dimension. Since just because Blaze lived in Silver's future doesn't mean she is from Silver's future.

    So, because Sonic 06 has some wonky time travel? It might be easier to say that, for Sonic, it's 06 --> Rush, but for Blaze it's the opposite. Or Blaze just has amnesia, and that's why she doesn't remember anything about Sonic and Chaos Emeralds. I personally would like to think she remembers it, even if no one else does, because that would add to the subtle sadness of her character. We do know the writer of 06 did want to link the two games closer, but wasn't able to, so...who knows exactly what the original plan was.
     
  5. Ashura96

    Ashura96

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    What proof is there that SegaSonic takes place before Sonic 1?
     
  6. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

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    I don't think it is, but it's generally easier to put it there if you try to make a timeline, and I like to think Eggman being actually able to trap him plus Sonic running scared are the kind of things that would only happen to his younger self before fully becoming the bold hero he is in the main games. Of course, that's just me, you could argue using his ledge animations and the room-type bosses and mini-bosses he's fought.

    Yeah, I do too, the 8-bit games are the only ones deliberately separated on development and not by awkward retconning years later or by virtue of poor time and dimension shenanigans. I'm still waiting for an explanation on how the eggmen came out of white space, though.
     
  7. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    It may never get explained. Too much hassle for Iizuka-san...
     
  8. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    There is really no proof, actually.
    But Sonic 1's manual says that Sonic had met and defeated Eggman a few times before. As the situation shown in SegaSonic seems to portray a Sonic more "fragile" than usual, it fits better as a prequel to Sonic 1. But that's just my view of the thing.
     
  9. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    Yeah, but Sonic 4's description strongly suggests that there was no confrontation between Sonic and Eggman after Sonic & Knuckles.

    "Sonic 4 picks up right where Sonic and Knuckles™ left off.

    With Eggman finally defeated, Sonic runs off to explore new zones and uncharted lands. Dr. Eggman, furious at the destruction of the Death Egg and the failure of his plans, puts all of his most devious schemes into action."
     
  10. SpeedStarTMQ

    SpeedStarTMQ

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    Yeah, but Sonic 4’s official website and material also stated that Knuckles ‘ story takes place at the same time as Sonic’s. There’s really nothing to suggest now that this takes place right after S&K, what with Mania now seemingly taking that spot.

    The only way that Sonic 4 now takes place right after S&K is for it to be due to the time travel events that occur after Sonic Generations. Given that Modern Sonic seems to be an older version of the original Sonic it would surely have to take place at least a little while afterwards, though the design change is really just that - a design choice.
     
  11. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    It still irks me that Classic Sonic is WAY smaller than Modern Sonic.
    They're supposed to have the same height, 1 meter. So...why that?
     
  12. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    Maybe he grown up in the modern era. It was his birthday in Generations after all.
     
  13. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    That is precisely the point. I believe Sega is going to separate the two Sonics completely from now on, with an official excuse of Generations' time travel. So that is why I think none of these new classic games that will rise now (starting with Mania) form a past for Sonic 4.
     
  14. Pengi

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    We're covering some old ground here. Maybe a moderator could merge with this thread?

    I don't think Mania is supposed to take place after Chaotix. The language used in the Sonic Mania Introduction Manual (has anyone scanned this yet?) strongly suggests that it takes place not too long after Sonic 3 & Knuckles, with no other adventures inbetween ("Some time after saving Angel Island", "It's up to Sonic, Tails & their newest ally, Knuckles the Echidna", "Following the defeat of Dr. Eggman's previous scheme Knuckles considers Sonic an ally").

    The cut-scene of Eggman contacting Metal Sonic on the Little Planet/Stardust Speedway suggests that he's been there since Sonic CD.

    The second damaged body is a bit of a mystery though. Possibly following his defeat in Sonic Generations? It doesn't entirely make sense, but the Little Planet is a place where time is non-linear anyway, so...

    After Sonic 2006, Silver's timeline was no longer destroyed by Iblis. Then Sonic and Silver meet again for the "first" time in Sonic Rivals.

    Takashi Iizuka is credited as the scenario writer for both Sonic Rivals games, so it's probably safe to assume they count. He confirmed that Eggman Nega as Eggman's descendant is his true backstory, which has carried over into everything since, including his Sonic Channel profile and the 25th Anniversary comics.

    The 2012 Olympics game on 3DS acknowledges that origin, as well as the events of Rush (Adventure) - make of that what you will.

    In Sonic CD, Metal Sonic's height was 76.54cm. The rest of the cast didn't get official heights until Sonic Adventure. Though around 2009, Sega did use those heights on their updated Classic Sonic cast model sheets. This was before Sonic Generations showed the two versions of Sonic side by side. In Generations, Classic Sonic and Classic Metal Sonic are about 3/4 Modern Sonic's height, which would be consistent with Sonic CD.

    For now, there is no official explanation for why Classic Sonic is now from another dimension. It just is. Iizuka implied that characters like Mighty only exist in Classic Sonic's world, which suggests a traditional "alternate universe" scenario, rather than a divergent timeline scenario.

    In Penguin's "Welcome to the World of Sonic" book, the Sonic Generations page says "Along the way I met this little guy - he looked like me, but he actually came from another dimension!"

    SegaBits interviewed one of the writers of a couple of Penguin's Sonic books (though not "World of") and he confirmed that everything goes through Sonic Team for their approval.

    So it seems that the change of Classic Sonic's status is retroactive, just as it was for Eggman Nega.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2020
  15. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    Because they are going to pretend that both Sonics were always from different dimensions since Sonic Adventure, which makes little to no sense.

    Didn't Christian Whitehead say that Mania is within a timeline post-Generations? I'm not saying that his word is worth more than Iizuka's or whatever, but it could be some sort of semi-official explanation.
     
  16. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    Well... One learns stuff everyday.
    Didn't know that one about Metal Sonic on Sonic CD's manual.
    That kinda changes all of my perspective on the Classic Cast.
     
  17. qwertysonic

    qwertysonic

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    I like this timeline; it's really well thought out. The one thing I disagree with (and I know I'm in the minority here so I'm not saying you're wrong) is Sonic CD being placed between Sonic 1 and Sonic 2. I know CD was released before 3&K, but I've always taken the position that Metal Sonic is the final design for Eggman's Sonic robot. We had Silver Sonic in Sonic 2, Mecha Sonic in Sonic 3&K, and then Metal Sonic in Sonic CD (and the OVA).

    Eggman finally decided on the Metal Sonic design and then iterated upon it from then on. That's why we only see Metal Sonic in the Adventure and Modern eras. That's also why we see the other two Sonic robots in capsules in SADX while you can play as Metal Sonic after getting all the emblems.
     
  18. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member

    The main reason I placed Sonic CD before Sonic 2 was this. Sonic 4's description claims that nothing happened between Sonic 3K and Sonic 4. It would be weird if Sonic CD was placed before Sonic 1, and awkward if it was placed after Sonic 4 Episode I. So that was the setup I got.
     
  19. qwertysonic

    qwertysonic

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    I have seen Sonic CD placed after Sonic 4 ep 1, but I agree, it is awkward. That's why I just assume Sonic 4 was a "re-imagining" of the classics and leave it out of the cannon timeline.
     
  20. James Smith

    James Smith

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    I personally don't like how Sonic 4 is even considered to be canon. It never had a proper ending like Chronicles and Mania de canoized it with its elevator intro.