So I made this Ultimate Timeline Form of the games from 1991 to 2018

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by raphael_fc, Jun 8, 2020.

  1. SpeedStarTMQ

    SpeedStarTMQ

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    It would actually be the other way around.

    1) The main timeline games happen up to Sonic Forces as normal.

    2) Infinite obtains the Phantom Ruby, weird stuff starts happening. The Ruby appears on Angel Island in the past and thus causes a divergence.

    3) Sonic Mania happens in the past: at this point as a divergence this Classic Sonic is now from another dimension and not the same past as before.

    4) At the end of Mania the Ruby transports Classic Sonic to Forces.

    5) Forces happens. Classic Sonic goes home.

    6) Sonia Mania Plus Encore Mode happens.

    As a side note, if Generations Classic Sonic were to be pulled to the main timeline future again (bearing in mind his future is now Sonic 4 and separate) then he would be from another dimension.
     
  2. JuiceCake

    JuiceCake

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    This is a pretty solid timeline and its seems that you have put, a good time on this. Some of them felt a little forced into the story. The "additional interpretation"s is acually pretty shite and seeing the game gear/SMS games splitting off from the adventure era explains how there doesn't come any mention of them.

    plus its good that you posted the alt page, shows that the good future is more inportant, which I have missed opinions about.
    A pretty good timeline
     
  3. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    What if the Ruby, at the end of Forces, is tossed into the past, creating a time loop?
    I wouldn't be surprised if SEGA went along with such theory, if anyone ever asked...
     
  4. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    How is this different?
    Number 2 of that list got me confused, but the rest looks the same.
     
  5. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    So the Phantom Ruby from Forces goes to Mania and from Mania to Forces and Mania Plus is just Mania?
     
  6. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    Erm... To be honest, I don't know much about the Encore Mode, so... xD
     
  7. Beamer the Meep

    Beamer the Meep

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    Are we taking the Forces webcomics into consideration for the timeline? If so, it's pretty clear that Eggman finds the Phantom Ruby and then reverse engineers it into the prototypes that use Virtual Reality rather than distorting spacetime. That would suggest to me that the original Ruby came natively from Mania and that the timeline was already split during Generations and formed another quantum reality (or dimension, which the Sonic series and many other franchises confuse with quantum realities or parallel universes). When Encore Mode happens, the original Ruby and Classic Sonic return to that "dimension". Not so sure the time loop theory really works in that case.
     
  8. SpeedStarTMQ

    SpeedStarTMQ

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    It’s different because you started with the Phantom Ruby appearing in the past. It’s important that we make it clear that the events of Forces have to start for the Phantom Ruby to appear in the past on Angel Island, which causes the divergence in the timeline.

    In Sonic Generations, Classic Sonic is pulled straight from the past, and time is messed up across the board. After he and Modern Sonic power up to defeat the Eggmen everything is undone. He time travels in the end and goes back to where he left off. It’s shown that Classic Sonic is learning the jump dash and his Super Sonic theme is the Sonic 4 theme, therefore it’s heavily implied that he becomes Sonic 4’s Sonic (a game series being released around this time) and thus Sonic 4 happens after he arrives back not long after the events of S3&K. Sonic 4 is a divergence from the main timeline and therefore now another dimension but only diverges AFTER Sonic Generations happens.

    Sonic Mania on the other hand diverges at the start of the game due to the events in Forces. At the time Classic Eggman warps Classic Sonic from Angel Island the divergence happens, and Sonic Mania’s story is then already branched from the main timeline.

    The fact that Sonic Mania refers heavily to Knuckles Chaotix implies that game happens first somehow. Perhaps Taxman could advise whether Mania is before or after Chaotix, or even if SEGA consider Chaotix canon in any scenario. If it’s not I’d remove it from my list but where possible a game should be considered canon unless absolutely impossible to place.
     
  9. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    It seems kinda clear by now that there's no specific timeline or set of timelines.
    One could even say that there's more parallel realities than different timelines.
    So far, each timeline presented here did its best to align each game accordingly.
    But there's always discrepancies here and there, or stuff open to interpretation.
    I know this input of mine is worthless, just felt like expressing my opinion of it.
     
  10. SpeedStarTMQ

    SpeedStarTMQ

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    I don’t feel that way at all, in fact I feel like the only thing arguable about the timeline I set out is Knuckles Chaotix, a game that SEGA haven’t cared about or re-released since it released to limited players and minimal fanfare in 1996.

    Everything else conforms to release date, or moved up a few spaces due to in-game events without causing plot holes or the player having to insert unseen events to make them fit. It even conforms to actual changes, such as Classic Sonic first being a past and then another dimension version, and Sonic 4 being cancelled and in no way affiliated going forward.

    Effectively we’re having the same conversations that the Zelda community did 10 years ago, and then Nintendo dropped a timeline. I don’t think SEGA are interested in doing the same, but clearly they’ve got a decent sense of continuity from the changes they make.

    Edit: Just realised I missed both the Riders games AND the Storybook games from my list, so will have to add them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
  11. Pengi

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    People are overthinking the Classic Sonic situation. In Generations he is from the past. In everything since he is from another dimension. The explanation for this is that Sonic Team changed their minds. The current story is that he is from another Dimension, and always has been.

    You can try to come up with different in-universe explanations for the change, but it wouldn't explain why Tails and Eggman would be aware of it.

    It's the same with the Koopalings in the Mario series:

    There's no explanation for this. It's just a change.
     
  12. Multi Battler

    Multi Battler

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    It's plain as day that Sonic Team likes experimenting with the Sonic timeline and chronology. And that's perfectly ok (Zelda, Final Fantasy, everyone's guilty of it). It certainly makes things more interesting, but it's also lazy and makes everything seem like a huge joke in the eyes of the die-hard fan. Nope, don‘t need it. Trying to squeeze everything into only one timeline is hard, but not impossible. Besides, you also take away future plot points. Games in which you must travel beyond the universe or rescue not just one but two princesses become more and more unlikely that way. You shouldn't limit yourself like this.

    And that's why I like the Sonic series so much!

    - When does X take place?
    - What happened to Y?
    - How come there are humans in Sonic's world?
    - Where lies South Island? Why is everyone decanonizing Sonic the Fighters? ._.
    etc.

    I know this is a little bit off topic, but I love that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
  13. Childish

    Childish

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    Since CD has time travel we can't assume that Eggman is from the same time period as Sonic, because of the nature of little planet it takes place everywhere in the timeline at once. So I assume that's why it isn't on the lift in Mania. Theoretically from Eggman's point of view CD could take place only a couple of days before episode metal. If this is true the evolution of Sonic robots would be: Silver Sonic, Mecha Sonic, Metal Sonic. However I don't actually think that Metal is related to the other two, personally I think that Metal is purely built to out speed Sonic and Mecha was built to match his ability to use the chaos emeralds.
     
  14. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    I understand what you did, but I'm having a hard time trying to reconcile it with what I know.

    We know that the Phantom Ruby in Sonic Forces appeared out of the blue as well. You could argue that it first appeared in Forces and THEN it went to Mania. But Sonic Mania Plus Encore Mode states clearly that this mode happens after the events of Sonic Forces. That Classic Sonic in Encore Mode is the same Sonic that helped the Resistance led by Knuckles in Forces. And you confirmed that.

    So where did the Phantom Ruby first appeared in your timeline? If it did in Forces first, when did it go to Mania and when did it go to Mania Plus?
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
  15. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    We know that Sega is retconning the whole classic thing. Even if Sega gives no explanation for classic Sonic being from another dimension (as if he always had been), in my opinion it is perfectly acceptable to consider that this happened after Generations, as suggested by Christian Whitehead. It does no harm, since the classic trilogy also happened (loosely) as a prequel to Sonic Adventure in modern Sonic timeline. A split timeline is essencially a different dimension. Look:

    In one approach, one says that there are two dimensions. In the classic dimension the events are: Sonic 1, Sonic CD, Sonic 2, Sonic 3K, Sonic Mania. In the modern dimension, the events are Sonic 1, Sonic CD, Sonic 2, Sonic 3K, Sonic Adventure, and so on.

    In another approach, one says that the same timeline has split. In the new timeline, caused by Generations' time travel, the events are: Sonic 1, Sonic CD, Sonic 2, Sonic 3K, Sonic Mania. In the original timeline, the events are Sonic 1, Sonic CD, Sonic 2, Sonic 3K, Sonic Adventure, and so on.

    I'm simplifying the list of games here, but it's the same thing. Tails and Eggman know this simply because they have impressive intelligence and understand that the events of Generations would cause this fork in the timeline and, from then on, they would treat that Sonic as being from another dimension. It is actually not that hard to come up with.
     
  16. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    From my point of view, there is some consensus about the canonicality of most games and their placement in the timeline.
    They are: Sonic 1 -> Sonic 2 -> Sonic 3K -> Sonic Adventure -> Sonic Adventure 2 -> Sonic Advance 2 -> Sonic Heroes -> Shadow -> Sonic Battle -> Sonic Advance 3 -> Unleashed -> Colors -> Generations -> Lost World -> Forces

    There are games that, while most agree they are canonical, there is some doubt about their placement in the timeline.
    They are: Sonic CD, SegaSonic, Knuckles Chaotix, Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic R, Sonic Mania, Sonic Advance, Sonic Rush, Sonic Rush Adventure, Sonic Rivals, Sonic Rivals 2

    And there are games where there is still some doubt whether they are canonical or not, and also their placement.
    They are: all the Game Gear titles, Sonic 4, Sonic Shuffle, Sonic 06, Sonic Chronicles, the Storybook series, the Riders series, Team Sonic Racing
    I like to consider that they are all canonical somehow, even if in parallel timelines or even erased from history.

    And I really think that:

    - Sonic CD should be placed between Sonic 1 and Sonic 2;
    - SegaSonic should be placed before Sonic 1;
    - Sonic 4 and Mania should not be placed in the same timeline, as the two are said to be a sequence of Sonic 3K without intermediate events;
    - Knuckles Chaotix, Sonic 3D Blast and Sonic R should appear together, in this order. So, either they would come after Mania, or they would stay in yet another timeline;
    - Rush and Rush Adventure should be placed before Rivals and Rivals 2, because it makes more sense for Eggman Nega to try to help Eggman first and then give up and try to eliminate him. Besides, in Rush Adventure we see that Eggman Nega still acts as if Sonic is not so familiar. These four games must be placed before Colors;
    - Sonic 06 should be placed before Sonic Rush, even though Blaze's ending doesn't serve as a prequel. To me, it is more coherent to imagine that, before the events of the game, the Sol Emeralds took her to Silver's future of their own free will, just as they did to take her to the amusement park in Colors.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
  17. SpeedStarTMQ

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    I mostly agree with your post, and agree there is some inconsistency with Knuckles Chaotix which should definitely be set around 3D Blast and Sonic R. The problem is that Heroes retconned this game so we could do one of three things: assume Charmy Bee is a moron (which isn’t that much of a stretch), believe that it only takes place in another timeline, or is entirely non-canon across any timelines.

    Sonic Advance though? There’s nothing to suggest it shouldn’t be set after Sonic Adventure 2, as chronologically that’s when it released, and the red bi-plane shows up in later games too. It’s best to keep the games as close to their release dates as possible unless there’s something in there that could only happen after another game (I.e the multiple mentions of Maria and Gerald by Shadow in Sonic Battle, meaning it and it’s sequels must take place after Shadow The Hedgehog).

    Playing the games in the main timeline (generally in release order) doesn’t show us as the audience anything about the Phantom Ruby. The first we see it is in Sonic Forces, so this is where chronologically it must be first seen as I noted previously. Mania cannot occur in the main timeline because it’s not seen then.

    Once it appears in Forces, it also appears back in time, causing time to split (and therefore Mania) from the main timeline in what I would consider to be the Classic Timeline, also causing Classic Sonic to be seen as an alternate dimension version from that point onwards, because it’s no longer Forces past (where Mania never occurred up to that point).

    The next question is: so where is the Phantom Ruby in the main timeline till then? The answer isn’t important, we just need to know that until it’s first harnessed in Sonic Forces it doesn’t cause any issues with the past. We’re not dealing with a looped timeline at this point.

    So just to confirm:

    1) Bad guys get the Phantom Ruby around Sonic Forces.

    2) The Phantom Ruby appears on Angel Island in the past due to future events: “a sudden dimensional breach occurs in the atmosphere, causing a unique energy wave signature to appear on Angel Island.”

    3) These events cause the events to split from the main timeline. When Classic Sonic reaches Angel Island, Classic Eggman has already reached the Ruby and sends Sonic to Green Hill Zone.

    4) The events of Mania then happen.

    5) At the end of Mania, Classic Sonic is sent to the main timeline by the Ruby, still linked due to the effects of the inter dimensional rift. The events of Forces then happen and at the end, Classic Sonic is sent back to Angel Island in his time.

    5) Sonic Mania Plus happens. This timeline is now seemingly forever split from the Forces timeline, therefore future events will not happen as they did from S3&K onwards.

    I still don’t know how Knuckles Chaotix fits here. Everything points to it being before Mania but I can’t understand why, as everything up to the rift would be exactly the same as the main timeline where Knuckles Chaotix doesn’t seem to occur due to Sonic Heroes. Maybe it does occur in the main timeline and Sonic Heroes doesn’t fully edge it out? We need official answers for this game.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
  18. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    But why exactly did it appear in the past? What future events?
    I don't have any issue with it appearing out of nowhere, whether in Mania or in Forces. Nobody knows where it came from anyways. But, once it appeared in the present (Forces), why did it also appear in the past? It can't be after the end of Forces, because the events of Forces haven't happen yet.

     
  19. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

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    I'm amazed you can make so many questions that show so evidently how messed is the continuity of the franchise, yet you keep trying to fit everything in. Is like when Ninja Turtles left their blimp in the middle of the street at daytime and moved on foot through said street with no disguise or camouflage, yet they were still ninjas and just a rumour or urban legend in the eyes of most new york citizens after that happened.

    Well, to answer a question made on the previous page, Little Planet manifests in never lake once a month. In the animated portions of CD, it looked like it appeared and disappeared, but Sonic 4 portrayed it having an orbit that moves it away and back, getting close enough to the main planet to visit it once a month. Oh, and the time distortion in little planet stays at little planet, so don't mess it with other forms of time travel seen in the games or use it to guess character origins.
     
  20. SpeedStarTMQ

    SpeedStarTMQ

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    You’re asking me questions that should really be directed at SEGA - I haven’t changed anything that they haven’t said, so I don’t know any more than you about why, just that it does happen.

    The Sonic Mania manual says what occurs a the start of the game is “a sudden dimensional breach in the atmosphere”. The game warps Sonic at the end, and we’re told officially that he goes to the start of Sonic Forces.

    SEGA have previously said that Classic Sonic in Generations comes from the past, but in Forces in a past dimension.

    We also know that Mania is a new game and happens due to time-travel events, so it’s not part of the original continuity.

    It’s all laid out there for us, we just don’t know where (or if) Knuckles Chaotix fits in.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2020