Project Needlemouse: old threads

… I may just raise hopes too high by pointing that out, but, eh.

 

This.

 

Okay yeah this is kind of a joke on initial observation HAHAHAH but what I'm really saying here is that all these tropes and character qualifiers aren't really how you define a good sonic game, they're elements of games that have been a part of successful games, but aren't necessary to future endeavors. All you really need here is Sonic (because he's in the title) and a good game (The other 2 I greened I just thought were neat ideas on their own)

Part of what I think the problem with alot of the Sonic the Hedgehog branded games are is the "Pile-up Design" style where elements are added ontop of eachother without stepping back and looking at why they are in there and whether or not they're really what's needed to design a good game on. Sonic doesn't NEED a spindash, a super form, reoccuring characters, or even familar mechanics. All you really need is the character and talented designers. If you examine other long-running franchises that have progressed alongside sonic you see how throwing out all conventions and just doing something because you believe in the idea can lead to great games. One of my favorites, the Megaman franchise, has birthed to over 5 successful re-imaginings of the character and overall game design principles. A majority of the Kirby franchise games play completely different from eachother, each one a success in it's own right. (For the most part)

The Mario franchise is a perfect example of how you can take the idea of a character and deconstruct it to be something entirely different. Hell it wasn't until until his FOURTH outing that we got the Mario that we all know and love. Before then he wasn't even able to stomp on an enemy's head, and that didn't make a return until SMB3. Mario 64 dumped many of the Mario tropes in favor of a design built from the ground up to make sense within a 3D space. A character isn't defined by his games, but rather it's the character that defines the games that he's in. Sonic is capable of more than recapturing Sonic the Hedgehog 2. The various Sonic cartoons (us and jp) throughout the last few decades have been prime examples of the kind of versatility the character can afford, an idea that's only beginning to be embraced with some of the more recent Sonic titles, but not fully explored.

One of the worst things that can happen to a character is stagnation. Stagnation comes from retreading familiar ground. It comes from basing principles off ideas that haven't been fully examined and analyzed. All these existing elements of Sonic aren't what's going to make a good Sonic game. A flow chart and arbitrary check-boxed list of "good ideas" isn't going to form a perfect formula for = GOOD SONIC GAME!! What's going to make a good Sonic game is a team of talented designers with the freedom and resources to explore the character and what can really be done with him.

 

How do you remake what wasn't finished in the first place?

But before we argue semantics, I think it's a bad idea. They were cut for a reason.
For instance, at the risk of being very unpopular, how many people played Hidden Palace in the beta and actually found it boring?

 

This post should be read. The guy sure knows what he's talking about, and I'm not sarcastic.

 

So jackelbeaver, basically you're saying as long as they make a game with the gameplay based around the character instead of vice versa, that suddenly means Sonic games will be good again? :specialed: You act like Mario completely changed genres and everything whenever he went to 3D. Sure, his jumps got more acrobatic, he got a life system, running was on analog with walking, and mushrooms and fire flowers suddenly disappeared, but guess what? Mario was still based around simple platforming and acrobatics, in colorful surreal worlds, with the same type of enemies, same characters, same dang coins, and the same point of gameplay. If the Mario series would've become some sort of action-rpg in vein to the Mario movie with Bob Hoskins and stuff in it when it transitioned to 3D, I could understand what you're getting at. But Mario barely changed, powerups or not (which you can't really use as an excuse any more, because Mario Galaxy featured most of the listed powerups anyways).

Take advantage of Sonic's style in the third dimension, you may say, but little have you noticed that Sonic isn't about running constantly until he gets to the end of the level. There's more to it, because lo and behold, he plays like a platformer, not a sentient racecar. If you were to base Sonic off his counterparts found in TV shows and such, Sonic would basically be a furry version of the Flash. And believe me, basing Sonic's gameplay as just that won't make that great of a video game a you think it will. Just because Sonic could take one step and go 700+ mph in Sonic X or SatAM or whatever doesn't mean he should in a video game, because that's just game-breaking and not really fun. The point in Sonic's gameplay was to have a character that could maintain platforming, "Spinball physics", and speed all into one category to make a rewarding, fantastic game. They built the character around the gameplay (the opposite of what you suggested), and thus Sonic the Hedgehog was born. And guess what? It was an instant success! You know why? Because even though he looked cool and had cool abilities, he had unique and amazing gameplay, catchy music and beautiful graphics in his games (which is why Sonic succeeded so much better than your ordinary "cool" anthropomorphic character of the 90s).

I'm not saying we should depend on such fanboy inanity that was that "Needlemouse How-To Guide". We don't need Super Sonic, nor do we need to remake scrapped levels or have a ten-minute time limit. If anything, here's what we need:

Needed: Sonic, Eggman/Robotnik, Platforming, Occasional speed, "Spinball physics (aka rolling)", surreal Sonic-styled landscapes, awesome soundtrack, Jesus (because we all need Jesus)
Good Extras: Chaos Emeralds, Tails, Knuckles, Spindash, Badniks, Leaderboards, Underwater, Eggbotnik at end of every level / Final Boss
Not Needed But Would Still Be Nice: Super Sonic, Containment Pods, Special Stages, Say-Guhhh opening

(I have no idea why they would count Monitors or Spikes on that list. They're in EVERY GAME! :P)

 

Wasn't me that started the crazy semantics, it's in the pic!

^ See what you did there? You changed it from being about the game's original structure to being about the character!
tsk,tsk..


By throwing in an old level, they'll get a better sense of what to achieve. I'd much rather they build towards a highly complex Sonic 2 level than "trying" to build a Sonic level that just ends up being a left->right run-a-thon.
Start with the engine, add an old level, get it feeling right, and then work on the rest of it.
Build levels that match the feel, rather than aiming for the look.

 

Umm, no I didn't. I simply had to say that it wouldn't be a Sonic game without Sonic and Eggman. I never said one side or the other (in this case characters vs gameplay) was the more important, I was just against the idea of replacing a tried and true gameplay structure in favor for something that's supposed to "fit Sonic moar".

In other words, I have no idea what you were getting at when you said that.

 

Exactly. Because of this, practically everyone hates Sonic Spinball, Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic R, and every other non-platforming Sonic game.

Admittedly, that was the most linear stage of all Sonic games. There WAS no other path than forward.

 

The hell? Anyways, I'll just wait for December 28 as well.

 

I think you people are just overthinking things again. It won't matter in the end if the character makes the game or if the game makes the character. All that really matters is if the game is fun and competently made. There has to be more real substance to the game than the filler that we usually get in Sonic games these days. Fulfilling every criteria on the list above won't really change much if the game has more filler in it than actual gameplay.

 

"In the new year"? Does that mean around January-ish or just 2010 in general?

At least we know when we'll finally see the game. "It comes out in 2010, so you'll see what it actually is in, uh... 2010!

 

Maybe we'll get something on the 25th. That would be an awesome Christmas present, but I doubt anything will happen.

EDIT:

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF after only 5 seconds I posted too, jesus.

 

"in the new year" means anything from January 1st to December 31st lol

The'll pull a SEGASaturn at E3 and just say "ITS OUT NOW!"

 

Aw god dammit, then I guess there's no hoping for the 25th then.

 

Even if the game could work perfectly fine with just Sonic alone, that's not necessarily how I'd like it to go.

I'm probably not alone in thinking Sonic 3&K was the most fun when playing as Knuckles.

 

I'd be perfectly content with 7 stages, 2-3 acts each, just Sonic, personally. I would love to have Tails follow you, turn into Super Sonic after beating the game, etc, but if this is purely a downloadable title I really wouldn't mind it featuring playable Sonic only and would have no objections to that. Tails, Knuckles, etc, being playable would be awesome though, only if they nail Sonic down perfectly though.

 

I stopped supporting it the instant he scratched Tails off. Seriously, Chimpo, what the hell is your beef with the little guy? You've gone as far as to say friggin' Chip is better than him.

 

I love that link that basically says "news is coming next year". News about news, hahahah. And holy shit, this thread just gave me an idea for a drawing. I'll put up my sketches in the Creative Works thread in an hour or two.

Edit- And here it IS!