Project Needlemouse: old threads

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Aquaslash, Sep 9, 2009.

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  1. Herm the Germ

    Herm the Germ

    Hmm, not bad. Well done, doctor! Member
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    Dresden, Saxony, Germany
    MIDI-to-SMPS-conversions, mostly. Takin' requests, too.
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stay tuned to GameSpot's Sega feature on December 28 where we'll be giving you <b>exclusive previews on <I>all</I> these games</b> and video interview with the developers behind them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    … I may just raise hopes too high by pointing that out, but, eh.
     
  2. Iceguy

    Iceguy

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    Hell. It's in my head.
    Internal system recovery
    <!--QuoteBegin-AlexPuma from that GoNintendo site+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AlexPuma from that GoNintendo site)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sonic - Well, can't have the games without him.
    Tails - Of course.
    Focus on Platforming - Yes. Most people seem to forget that biggest thing Sonic lost in the past decade. Not the focus on speed.
    Knuckles - Sure, why not?
    Super Sonic - Eh, not really needed.
    Occasional Speed - Yes. The speed was the reward, not the gameplay.
    Dr. Robotnik - Uhoh, this looks like it was made by one of the whiners who thinks the name change from Robotnik to Eggman caused the downfall of the series, despite the fact his name was always Eggman.
    Opening Screens - Umm... okay?
    Ten Minutes - Umm... lets not make this a carbon copy of the past games, okay?
    Spikes - Not needed. While we're at it, lets add in the spike glitch from Sonic 1 for added effect.
    Monitors - They went away?
    Special Stages - As long as they're not mandatory, like in Sonic Heroes.
    Original Dev Team - This would help a lot. Trouble is, Yuji Naka really doesn't want anything to do with Sonic anymore.
    Remake Scrapped Levels - What's the point?
    Containment Pods - Not sure what makes this better than any other end-of-level goals.
    Eggman in every stage - Okay, this is just getting to be an old-school whiner rant.
    Retail Disc - Sure. I'm surprised they didn't say cartridge.
    Chaos Emeralds - They went away?
    Garbled Opening - What's the point other than pointless nostalgia?
    Badniks - They went away?
    Homage Music - What? You mean hire Nakamura back so he can write some jPop tunes and keep the copywrite to the music instead of Sega again?
    Classic Menu - Not needed. In fact, I think those menus were ugly.
    Spin Dash - Yes, and I never knew it went away.
    Underwater - Umm, weren't those the WORST part of the old games?
    4:3 Option - Why?
    Bonus Stages - What's the difference between this and Special Stages?
    Silver Sonic - This "character" didn't even have an official name to begin with!
    Leaderboards - I'm surprised this is listed. It wasn't in the original games so it must be a bad idea!
    Custom Sound Tracks - Okay, they just cried about wanting to make the music just like the old games. Now this.
    Jesus - Well, we're all doing this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This.
     
  3. jackelbeaver

    jackelbeaver

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    <img src="http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u89/Silvezx/triplefixed-1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    Okay yeah this is kind of a joke on initial observation HAHAHAH but what I'm really saying here is that all these tropes and character qualifiers aren't really how you define a good sonic game, they're elements of games that have been a part of successful games, but aren't necessary to future endeavors. All you really <b>need</b> here is Sonic (because he's in the title) and a good game (The other 2 I greened I just thought were neat ideas on their own)

    Part of what I think the problem with alot of the Sonic the Hedgehog branded games are is the "Pile-up Design" style where elements are added ontop of eachother without stepping back and looking at why they are in there and whether or not they're really what's needed to design a good game on. Sonic doesn't NEED a spindash, a super form, reoccuring characters, or even familar mechanics. All you really need is the character and talented designers. If you examine other long-running franchises that have progressed alongside sonic you see how throwing out all conventions and just doing something because you believe in the idea can lead to great games. One of my favorites, the Megaman franchise, has birthed to over 5 successful re-imaginings of the character and overall game design principles. A majority of the Kirby franchise games play completely different from eachother, each one a success in it's own right. (For the most part)

    The Mario franchise is a perfect example of how you can take the idea of a character and deconstruct it to be something entirely different. Hell it wasn't until until his FOURTH outing that we got the Mario that we all know and love. Before then he wasn't even able to stomp on an enemy's head, and that didn't make a return until SMB3. Mario 64 dumped many of the Mario tropes in favor of a design built from the ground up to make sense within a 3D space. A character isn't defined by his games, but rather it's the character that defines the games that he's in. Sonic is capable of more than recapturing Sonic the Hedgehog 2. The various Sonic cartoons (us and jp) throughout the last few decades have been prime examples of the kind of versatility the character can afford, an idea that's only beginning to be embraced with some of the more recent Sonic titles, but not fully explored.

    One of the worst things that can happen to a character is stagnation. Stagnation comes from retreading familiar ground. It comes from basing principles off ideas that haven't been fully examined and analyzed. All these existing elements of Sonic aren't what's going to make a good Sonic game. A flow chart and arbitrary check-boxed list of "good ideas" isn't going to form a perfect formula for = GOOD SONIC GAME!! What's going to make a good Sonic game is a team of talented designers with the freedom and resources to explore the character and what can really be done with him.
     
  4. <!--quoteo(post=387803:date=Dec 22 2009, 09:46 AM:name=Jayenkai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayenkai @ Dec 22 2009, 09:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=387803"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remake Scrapped Levels would be purely for us lot, and would cause us to grin like munkys. I don't see why they shouldn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    How do you remake what wasn't finished in the first place?

    But before we argue semantics, I think it's a bad idea. They were cut for a reason.
    For instance, at the risk of being very unpopular, how many people played Hidden Palace in the beta and actually found it <I>boring</I>?
     
  5. Iceguy

    Iceguy

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    Hell. It's in my head.
    Internal system recovery
    <!--quoteo(post=387864:date=Dec 22 2009, 03:57 PM:name=jackelbeaver)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jackelbeaver @ Dec 22 2009, 03:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=387864"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Part of what I think the problem with alot of the Sonic the Hedgehog branded games are is the "Pile-up Design" style where elements are added ontop of eachother without stepping back and looking at why they are in there and whether or not they're really what's needed to design a good game on. Sonic doesn't NEED a spindash, a super form, reoccuring characters, or even familar mechanics. All you really need is the character and talented designers. If you examine other long-running franchises that have progressed alongside sonic you see how throwing out all conventions and just doing something because you believe in the idea can lead to great games. One of my favorites, the Megaman franchise, has birthed to over 5 successful re-imaginings of the character and overall game design principles. A majority of the Kirby franchise games play completely different from eachother, each one a success in it's own right. (For the most part)

    The Mario franchise is a perfect example of how you can take the idea of a character and deconstruct it to be something entirely different. Hell it wasn't until until his FOURTH outing that we got the Mario that we all know and love. Before then he wasn't even able to stomp on an enemy's head, and that didn't make a return until SMB3. Mario 64 dumped many of the Mario tropes in favor of a design built from the ground up to make sense within a 3D space. A character isn't defined by his games, but rather it's the character that defines the games that he's in. Sonic is capable of more than recapturing Sonic the Hedgehog 2. The various Sonic cartoons (us and jp) throughout the last few decades have been prime examples of the kind of versatility the character can afford, an idea that's only beginning to be embraced with some of the more recent Sonic titles, but not fully explored.

    One of the worst things that can happen to a character is stagnation. Stagnation comes from retreading familiar ground. It comes from basing principles off ideas that haven't been fully examined and analyzed. All these existing elements of Sonic aren't what's going to make a good Sonic game. An arbitrary check-boxed list of "good ideas" isn't going to form a perfect formula for = GOOD SONIC GAME!! What's going to make a good Sonic game is a team of talented designers with the freedom and resources to explore the character and what can really be done with him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This post should be read. The guy sure knows what he's talking about, and I'm not sarcastic.
     
  6. Azookara

    Azookara

    take it from me, little buddy Member
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    hoboagogo?
    So jackelbeaver, basically you're saying as long as they make a game with the gameplay based around the character instead of vice versa, that suddenly means Sonic games will be good again? :specialed: You act like Mario completely changed genres and <I>everything</I> whenever he went to 3D. Sure, his jumps got more acrobatic, he got a life system, running was on analog with walking, and mushrooms and fire flowers suddenly disappeared, but guess what? Mario was still based around simple platforming and acrobatics, in colorful surreal worlds, with the same type of enemies, same characters, same dang coins, and the same point of gameplay. If the Mario series would've become some sort of action-rpg in vein to the Mario movie with Bob Hoskins and stuff in it when it transitioned to 3D, I could understand what you're getting at. But Mario barely changed, powerups or not (which you can't really use as an excuse any more, because Mario Galaxy featured most of the listed powerups anyways).

    Take advantage of Sonic's style in the third dimension, you may say, but little have you noticed that Sonic isn't about running constantly until he gets to the end of the level. There's more to it, because lo and behold, he plays like a <I>platformer</I>, not a sentient racecar. If you were to base Sonic off his counterparts found in TV shows and such, Sonic would basically be a furry version of the Flash. And believe me, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_Unleashed" target="_blank">basing Sonic's gameplay as just that won't make that great of a video game a you think it will.</a> Just because Sonic could take one step and go 700+ mph in Sonic X or SatAM or whatever doesn't mean he should in a video game, because that's just game-breaking and not really fun. The point in Sonic's gameplay was to have a character that could maintain platforming, "Spinball physics", and speed all into one category to make a rewarding, fantastic game. They built the character around the gameplay (the opposite of what you suggested), and thus Sonic the Hedgehog was born. And guess what? It was an instant success! You know why? Because even though he looked cool and had cool abilities, he had unique and amazing gameplay, catchy music and beautiful graphics in his games (which is why Sonic succeeded so much better than your ordinary "cool" anthropomorphic character of the 90s).

    I'm not saying we should depend on such fanboy inanity that was that "Needlemouse How-To Guide". We don't need Super Sonic, nor do we need to remake scrapped levels or have a ten-minute time limit. If anything, here's what we need:

    Needed: Sonic, Eggman/Robotnik, Platforming, Occasional speed, "Spinball physics (aka rolling)", surreal Sonic-styled landscapes, awesome soundtrack, Jesus (because we all need Jesus)
    Good Extras: Chaos Emeralds, Tails, Knuckles, Spindash, Badniks, Leaderboards, Underwater, Eggbotnik at end of every level / Final Boss
    Not Needed But Would Still Be Nice: Super Sonic, Containment Pods, Special Stages, Say-Guhhh opening

    (I have no idea why they would count Monitors or Spikes on that list. They're in EVERY GAME! :P)
     
  7. Jayenkai

    Jayenkai

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    <!--quoteo(post=387868:date=Dec 22 2009, 10:09 AM:name=Blanche Hodapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blanche Hodapp @ Dec 22 2009, 10:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=387868"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How do you remake what wasn't finished in the first place?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Wasn't me that started the crazy semantics, it's in the pic!

    <!--quoteo(post=387879:date=Dec 22 2009, 11:14 AM:name=Azukara)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Azukara @ Dec 22 2009, 11:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=387879"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->.... They built the character around the gameplay...

    ... We don't need Super Sonic, nor do we need to remake scrapped levels or have a ten-minute time limit....

    ... Needed: Sonic, Eggman/Robotnik...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    ^ See what you did there? You changed it from being about the game's original structure to being about the character!
    tsk,tsk..


    By throwing in an old level, they'll get a better sense of what to achieve. I'd much rather they build towards a highly complex Sonic 2 level than "trying" to build a Sonic level that just ends up being a left->right run-a-thon.
    Start with the engine, add an old level, get it feeling right, and then work on the rest of it.
    Build levels that match the feel, rather than aiming for the look.
     
  8. Azookara

    Azookara

    take it from me, little buddy Member
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    Umm, no I didn't. I simply had to say that it wouldn't be a Sonic game without Sonic and Eggman. I never said one side or the other (in this case characters vs gameplay) was the more important, I was just against the idea of replacing a tried and true gameplay structure in favor for something that's supposed to "fit Sonic moar".

    In other words, I have no idea what you were getting at when you said that.
     
  9. True Dude

    True Dude

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    <!--quoteo(post=387864:date=Dec 22 2009, 06:57 AM:name=jackelbeaver)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jackelbeaver @ Dec 22 2009, 06:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=387864"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A character isn't defined by his games, but rather it's the character that defines the games that he's in. Sonic is capable of more than recapturing Sonic the Hedgehog 2. The various Sonic cartoons (us and jp) throughout the last few decades have been prime examples of the kind of versatility the character can afford, an idea that's only beginning to be embraced with some of the more recent Sonic titles, but not fully explored.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Exactly. Because of this, practically everyone hates Sonic Spinball, Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic R, and every other non-platforming Sonic game.

    <!--quoteo(post=387868:date=Dec 22 2009, 07:09 AM:name=Blanche Hodapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blanche Hodapp @ Dec 22 2009, 07:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=387868"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For instance, at the risk of being very unpopular, how many people played Hidden Palace in the beta and actually found it <I>boring</I>?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Admittedly, that was the most linear stage of all Sonic games. There WAS no other path than forward.
     
  10. RevFirst

    RevFirst

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    <!--QuoteBegin-AlexPuma from that GoNintendo site+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AlexPuma from that GoNintendo site)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Eggman in every stage - Okay, this is just getting to be an old-school whiner rant.
    Badniks - They went away?
    Spin Dash - Yes, and I never knew it went away.
    Underwater - Umm, weren't those the WORST part of the old games?
    4:3 Option - Why?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The hell? Anyways, I'll just wait for December 28 as well.
     
  11. Machenstein

    Machenstein

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    I think you people are just overthinking things again. It won't matter in the end if the character makes the game or if the game makes the character. All that really matters is if the game is fun and competently made. There has to be more real substance to the game than the filler that we usually get in Sonic games these days. Fulfilling every criteria on the list above won't really change much if the game has more filler in it than actual gameplay.
     
  12. Overlord

    Overlord

    ...did we just switch realities? Moderator
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    I was with you until you scratched off Retail Disc, Chimpo. =P

    Image is pretty damn accurate, as it goes.
     
  13. NintendoBrad

    NintendoBrad

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    "In the new year"? Does that mean around January-ish or just 2010 in general?

    At least we know when we'll finally see the game. "It comes out in 2010, so you'll see what it actually is in, uh... 2010!
     
  14. OSM

    OSM

    retro is for losers! Member
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    Doing absolutely nothing
    Maybe we'll get something on the 25th. That would be an awesome Christmas present, but I doubt anything will happen.

    EDIT:<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><I>14 users and 3 guests viewing.
    </I><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF after only 5 seconds I posted too, jesus.
     
  15. trakker

    trakker

    The guy that's been warned! Member
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    <!--quoteo(post=387948:date=Dec 22 2009, 08:49 PM:name=NintendoBrad)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NintendoBrad @ Dec 22 2009, 08:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=387948"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"In the new year"? Does that mean around January-ish or just 2010 in general?

    At least we know when we'll finally see the game. "It comes out in 2010, so you'll see what it actually is in, uh... 2010!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    "in the new year" means anything from January 1st to December 31st lol

    The'll pull a SEGASaturn at E3 and just say "ITS OUT NOW!"
     
  16. OSM

    OSM

    retro is for losers! Member
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    Doing absolutely nothing
    <!--quoteo(post=387851:date=Dec 22 2009, 08:40 AM:name=Machenstein)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Machenstein @ Dec 22 2009, 08:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=387851"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.gamespot.com/wii/action/supermonkeyballsteproll/news.html?sid=6244536&mode=features" target="_blank">OMG WE HAVE NEWS!!!</a>

    ... and the news is we will have to wait until <I>next year</I> to see some actual news.

    <!--QuoteBegin-GameSpot Sega Interview+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GameSpot Sega Interview)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->GameSpot readers: Can you give us more details about Project Needlemouse?
    Darren Macbeth: More information on this project will be revealed in the new year.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->ಠ_ಠ<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Aw god dammit, then I guess there's no hoping for the 25th then.
     
  17. Clutch

    Clutch

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    Even if the game <I>could</I> work perfectly fine with just Sonic alone, that's not necessarily how I'd like it to go.

    I'm probably not alone in thinking <I>Sonic 3&K</I> was the most fun when playing as Knuckles.
     
  18. Solid SOAP

    Solid SOAP

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    I'd be perfectly content with 7 stages, 2-3 acts each, just Sonic, personally. I would love to have Tails follow you, turn into Super Sonic after beating the game, etc, but if this is purely a downloadable title I really wouldn't mind it featuring playable Sonic only and would have no objections to that. Tails, Knuckles, etc, being playable would be awesome though, only if they nail Sonic down perfectly though.
     
  19. Shadow Hog

    Shadow Hog

    "I'm a superdog!" Member
    <!--quoteo(post=387923:date=Dec 22 2009, 02:53 PM:name=Overlord)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Overlord @ Dec 22 2009, 02:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=387923"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was with you until you scratched off Retail Disc, Chimpo. =P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I stopped supporting it the instant he scratched Tails off. Seriously, Chimpo, what the hell is your beef with the little guy? You've gone as far as to say friggin' <b>Chip</b> is better than him.
     
  20. Ross-Irving

    Ross-Irving

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    I love that link that basically says "news is coming next year". News about news, hahahah. And holy shit, this thread just gave me an idea for a drawing. I'll put up my sketches in the Creative Works thread in an hour or two.

    Edit- <a href="http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=14009&view=findpost&p=388067" target="_blank">And here it IS!</a>
     
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