I honestly don't even know if this is unpopular, or if this is one of those things there is no consensus on, but in the current state of the Adventure games (SA1, SA2, Heroes, Shadow, 06) Heroes is indeed the best Adventure game. Well, last time I played it I found it to be. No fishing. No slow walking simulators with light platforming and puzzle elements sprinkled in like Amy. None of the fun of flying over literally every single level piece that could have a chance of engaging you as Tails. No treasure hunting. Outside the cheap shots and ambushes in SA2, I actually don't mind the mech stages that much honestly but I am not sad to see them go. It's just the main speed gameplay like that before actually worth caring about, except 1) Now the game is actually balanced unlike SA1. You can't just go "I'm not gonna' sugarcoat it" and spam x and/or square to spindash jump over literally all forms of engagement that do sort of exist in the levels. 2) Significantly more platforming than either Adventure game. Like, actual platforming. Not having stages mostly be tricks, homing attack chains, and light speed dashes like SA2, or having more than 99% of it being completely skippable like SA1. We got actual analog control here needed. 3) Not being as mindless if you want to play efficiently, with there being a number of systems in the combat and stuff that encourages varying up and changing your approach to it (until you get a level 3 flight character, but eh) 4) You can actually do slope jumps. Like, running slope jumps. (Though SA2's end of rail trick jumps are basically the same thing done a different way) And they even use this at times, making it necessary to score certain bonuses. Yeah, there are some things that can be better. Much better, actually. And some of those things are things done better in the first two Adventure games. But as is, all things considered, Heroes already surpasses both of the previous,and it's honestly not close.
Honestly I can agree with that. I've been replaying all the 3D Sonics (just the traditional Sonic portions of the games unless I don't have a choice) over the course of the past 2 years and with Heroes, I came away from it with a better impression vs the Adventure games. Its extremely unpolished and has a ton of flaws, but aside from both casino levels the levels are much more consistently good, even up to Final Fortress. Memorable level gimmicks, great setpieces, team system adds some gameplay variety, and so on. Something I became really aware of with SA1, Sonic's levels start off pretty strong (and fall off a bit with Casinopolis and Ice Cap) but after peaking with the one-two combo of Speed Highway and Red Mountain, the last 3 stages suuuuuuuuuuck. Sky Deck is a fucking mess and all 3 are super dull and end the campaign with a wet fart. SA2 does have great levels overall but there's not much gameplay variance between them for the most part. At least there are cool setpieces and a few level gimmicks that help add some distinction, even if it's not enough for me.
It's been some time since I last played SA1 but I remember liking all of those levels just fine. They're no Speed Highway but I had fun with them, I thought Sky Deck was cool
I think they'd be fine levels if it wasn't for the fact that they go on for way too long. I think if they were 2-3 minutes shorter I wouldn't have nearly as many issues with them. My general belief is that the worst Sonic levels are those that last for way too long, Sky Deck and Final Egg both falling into this pitfall.
I would say Final Egg is only too long if you don't cheat to burn through certain sections, which I almost hope you should be by that point in the game anyway. I would further retort that while Heroes' levels are definitely too long, they wouldn't be so bad if they weren't repeating large sections of geometry and locking you in rooms until you beat enemies. People talk about Heroes' combat being bad, but even if it were great it would still be a complete pace-killer to do this, and if you, for example, made most enemies die in one hit (like a Sonic game or something), the overall badness of the combat would be hugely-improved.
Egg Fleet is just Sky Deck with less going on and far more repetition. In fact everything problematic I can think of about Lost World, Sky Deck and Final Egg is already copied over and done worse in Heroes.
I will say I love Egg Fleet's atmosphere, however. Strangely I'm not partial to Final Fortress (goodness gracious does that one really feel long to me.) by comparison. I feel like Egg Fleet has a stronger sense of being way high in the sky, I love blistering down and beating up bots, it's exhilarating.
Tentatively committing to the take that if a level is good enough, being very long can't and won't hurt it. If the length is a sticking point, there's something wrong with the level (or the game's mechanics). Obviously there's "too much of a good thing", shit needing to end at some point, sweet spots, and all that. But it's much easier for something to overstay its welcome if it wasn't very welcome in the first place. I know "Sandopolis Act 2 is good" is an unpopular opinion, but the only issue I have with its length is the existence of the 10 minute time limit. Otherwise, I enjoy what I'm doing in Sonic 3K in general, and Sandopolis Act 2 in particular. Hell, I know some people who like 3K and Mania less because they're so much longer than something like Sonic 2, something I've never agreed with because 3K's fun enough to play that its length is a non-issue to me. This pairs with what I said about Shadow 05 in the other thread: I don't hate that Heroes levels, for example, are as long as they are because they're as long as they are. I hate that they're as long as they are because of how un-fun some of them are, and how quickly I would like for them to end, as a result. Aside from disliking how nerfed Tails and Knuckles are coming out of Adventure 1 and 2, I don't hate Heroes' gameplay loop in a vacuum; the sad excuse of a glide that is the 'triangle dive' and the flight functions well enough for what Heroes is doing. However, "destroy all of these robots before we let you out of this room" just really sucks, and the more of that a level has, the worse it is for me. That Eggmanland, for another example, has forced Werehog sections is the real sin in my eyes, not its length.
I've only ever played eggmanland once but i 100% felt like it would also never end at the time back in 2011, so I doubt I'd like it more now.
Clearly you don't know the power of spin-dash jumping. :p. I've beat both of these levels in under 5 minutes, easy.
Loops being scripted and used as glorified cutscenes/loading screens to show off cinematic camera angles and other stuff is a perfectly acceptable way of bringing them into 3D and I'm tired of pretending it's not. Every time a fangame has attempted to make loops "work" in 3D it hasn't set right with me. It just feels dismissive of the real world and how normal everyday people interact with video games and expect them to operate. I understand that hardcore fans want loops to open up tons of new gameplay possibilities, like running out of a loop halfway to use it like a ramp, but for a mass audience, loops in 3D make things really, really complicated. There are so many questions to answer, so many logistical problems in regards to game feel, physics, controls, camera angles, and even motion sickness, that fangames never quite solve, and Sonic as a game was never intended to solve. I don't blame Sonic Team one bit for not trying to expand the loop formula beyond what it was 25 years ago. There are plenty of ways to expand the gameplay and physics play possibilities with Sonic in 3D that don't involve loops.
To an extent this is true (frankly I've always thought the utility of loops in 2D was overrated and developed entirely as a response to the idea that they were developed for spectacle, which they were), but I don't think it's an excuse for a lot of the associated issues, namely that Sonic just can't handle complex terrain in a lot of games. I think the coolest thing SA1 and 2 did was let you run up and along walls with enough speed, something that was never possible in 2D, but I'm not sure Forces Sonic can do it without being specifically scripted to. It's an expression of the kind of design language players want to see out of the series, one where each interaction (or as many as possible) is handled by a comprehensive system rather than a context-dependent series of triggers, because it's more natural. If you labeled every necessary spot where Mario could wall-jump in Mario 64 with a "can wall jump here" flag (and nowhere else), it doesn't mean the wall-jumping itself would be broken, but the level of freedom the player experiences goes way down. I think somewhere in the middle makes sense, locking the player's turning when they hit a loop with enough speed to clear it but not if they drop below that speed or jump out of it. The ability to handle 360 degrees of motion is a necessity either way.
You actually can jump out of some loops in Sa2 to take shortcuts. The opening loop in Metal Harbor comes to mind.
It's just that running through a massive loop in 3D through the grace of a physics engine that can actually handle it is a really exhilarating feeling. Like a full on rollercoaster pit-in-my-stomach thrill that Sonic needs more of. I get that there are potential control issues but if fangames can figure it out then so can ST. Just put the loop on a wide track and make sure there's room for the camera. I think the potential to fall off mid-loop is just an inherent part of the challenge of overcoming it in 3D, like just getting through them was in Sonic 1.
