don't click here

Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Londinium, Jun 17, 2022.

  1. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    I don't like loops being an automated cutscene like they are in most 3D Sonic games, but I don't like them as freeform like they are in fangames either.

    I feel like ideally loops should restrict control but not the physics. You'd need to maintain speed to clear them (+ can add to the speed by spinning at the right time), but you only have to hold forward or backward to progress. That way you only put in as much thought to navigating them as you did in the 2D games. Plus, I don't have to give up my variety of epic camera angles. Those are so much more fun to watch than the behind-the-back "vomit cam" view.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 2
    • List
  2. HammerKirby

    HammerKirby

    HammerKeebi Member
    105
    25
    28
    Yea it's not like you have to rotate the d-pad inputs to match Sonic's input in the classic games. You just hold right to clear them, so naturally you would hold up to clear them in the 3d games, no?
     
  3. kazz

    kazz

    16-bait Member
    458
    213
    43
    Sonic World DX isn't a super polished fangame but IIRC even in that you mostly just hold up to clear loops. The "vomit cam" makes it just as effortless as running through any other track in the game. I really just don't think 3D loops are this inherent big problem that require automation or stiffened controls to be functional, you just need properly accommodating physics and level design. I'm not sure about this middle ground cause I'm just imagining having to hold "forward" while my camera orientation whips around for the cool angle. Maybe I panic and quickly re-orient the direction I'm running, causing the character to go "backwards" and fall off mid-loop, into whatever might be below. What are we even fixing at this point? I'd rather just be able to fly off the edge of a loop if I want, just like I can fly off the edge of a ramp if I want. It's fun!
     
  4. charcoal

    charcoal

    Be Cool, Be Wild, and Be Groovy Member
    1,078
    991
    93
    Every single Sonic game since Unleashed has had a character controller with the ability to make it up walls and loops unscripted, with the sole exception of lost world because he's slow there. Those things being unavailable isn't a physics constraint, it's a design decision.
     
  5. HammerKirby

    HammerKirby

    HammerKeebi Member
    105
    25
    28
    I mean Frontiers DLC had unscripted loops in the cyberspace levels and nobody seems to have noticed that. :p (They're a bit jank tho)
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2024
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  6. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    I mean I'm obviously down for some fun with half- or quarter-pipes, tubes, wall running, and some upside-down running having free movement; as long as the camera is sophisticated enough to follow it smoothly (I don't think most of them are, including Sonic World DX and other Blitzsonic engine games). Sonic Islands is the closest fangame to making that feel seamless. But anyways.

    I just mean for the traditional loops, spirals and oblong structures you can't expect the common player to stay steady on, I'd very much prefer the 2.5D control of sticking to a path. Especially if you want Sonic to run across more uniquely shaped structures. And if you're on a path it's really not hard to keep moving in the same direction while the camera twists and turns; the boost games have done it multiple times. Hell, Sonic R was doing it before the Sonic Adventure games even tried to answer loops.
     
  7. kazz

    kazz

    16-bait Member
    458
    213
    43
    And if you're running through a loop with the camera behind you it's even less hard to just keep holding forward. The boost games have a 'go forward' button you're expected to hold down constantly so I'm not sure if it's a fair comparison.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2024
  8. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    If you just want to just do straight-forward loops instead of more uniquely shaped ones, sure. But I suppose you wouldn't need more interesting loop structures anyways if all you could see besides Sonic was the floor in front of you..

    Which is a large part of my point. I think the spectacle of navigating these things is largely lost when the camera is taped to your back during them. You can see the scale and craziness of a loop or wild spiral in a 2D Sonic at all times since you're viewing it from the side. You don't really get that when the camera is in there with you. Unless you get excited at seeing the edges outside the loop flip upside-down, but that's the kind of disorientation and vertigo (hence the term "vomit cam") that I don't expect every player to get a kick from.

    It's better a Sonic game uses that in small or infrequent moments than that be a constant aspect of the game. Otherwise I find keeping the camera behind you is at safest uninteresting, or at it's most involved potentially nauseating. That's why I think most Sonic games and how they present loops had the right idea! Even if not executed the best it could be.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2024
  9. Palas

    Palas

    Don't lose your temper so quickly. Member
    1,065
    717
    93
    A large part of the excitement of rollercoasters, to me at least, is the anticipation. Probably more than the actual vertigo. It's seeing the uniquely-shaped loop and think, "this is going to be INSANE". I don't see how camera work that favors this kind of experience wouldn't be fantastic just because the camera is on your back while you're actually running through the loop.

    That said, the approach you vouch for does have benefits, and I don't mind what 3D Sonic usually does with loops for what it wants to do.
     
  10. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    I suppose, but I don't really feel payoff to the anticipation unless I can "feel" it. I can feel it on a real life rollercoaster because I can see all around and feel the g-force pulling me around, and the on-rails nature means I don't have to sweat the details of how I experience it.

    But in a video game where I'm needing to make sure Sonic stays on course, I can only see forward (where Sonic's pointing), and my general sense of spectacle or speed being lessened due to not being there (or just used to Sonic game shenanigans), the behind-the-back view just doesn't do much good for me. I think the 3D games zooming out and making it follow Sonic's motion instead of the loop's path is meant to enhance that "feel" and it really works for me, and it doubles for nausea-prone people as an upside-up to watch Sonic from. All this and, again, I don't have to worry about steering where Sonic goes.

    I don't know. Different strokes between me and the vomit-cam preferers, I guess?
     
  11. God i feel like I typed this because this is exactly how I feel about loops in 3D

    Always hated how 3D fangames and Sonic-inspired 3D games handle loops (and corkscrews!!!), and I'm even more mad that Frontiers is brought that to the games now. Just automate it (sometimes)!!! Let there be fancy camera angles because that's a main part of the spectacle itself!!! Looking at Sonic from behind the entire time does nothing for me, just makes it look like a very dull featureless hallway.
     
  12. charcoal

    charcoal

    Be Cool, Be Wild, and Be Groovy Member
    1,078
    991
    93
    The final horizon's loops being unautomated is actually a misconception, they just give the impression of unautomation because sonic team chose to omit the dash panels and fancy camera angles.

    If you slow down and check, you'll notice that it uses the same autorun trigger + spline combo everything else does. I dont blame people for not noticing though, since with boost games the difference between automated vs unautomated loops might as well boil down to the camera angle.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2024
    • Informative Informative x 4
    • List
  13. jubbalub

    jubbalub

    #1 Sonic Superstars defender Member
    1,000
    1,237
    93
    4-E and 4-F have un-automated loops, to a degree. In both cases, the camera pans upward and requires you to control Sonic until about halfway through the loop, where automation takes over.

    There are other instances where you're required to hit dash panels on the side of the loop to complete it, but most loops are indeed automated as you said.
     
    • Informative Informative x 6
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  14. Honestly, maybe, having loops as Jubbalub described above would be a good deal?
     
  15. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

    SAY HELLO TO MY CHOCOLATE BLEND Member
    2,964
    2,592
    93
    The Sonic expansion for Lego Dimensions is the best 3D Sonic game and I'm tired of pretending it's not.
     
  16. HammerKirby

    HammerKirby

    HammerKeebi Member
    105
    25
    28
    Never played it, and seems like kinda a PITA to play nowadays with those lego Sonic figures being pretty expensive now. Is there a way to play it for under $60?
     
  17. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

    SAY HELLO TO MY CHOCOLATE BLEND Member
    2,964
    2,592
    93
    I think you can make your own stickers with NFC213 tags and the LDTagEditor app, which should trick the game into thinking you have the set and unlock the DLC.

    Only things you'd need to buy are the game itself, the portal thing, and NFC213 tags. I would guess that'd be around $40ish.
     
  18. KingOfBunnies

    KingOfBunnies

    Member
    1,190
    290
    63
    Man, I bought Lego Dimensions and the Sonic set intending to play them in 2016... but then I never built the portal or the vehicles that Sonic comes with. I'm not sure if I have the instructions, I don't think I lost the pieces tho. Maybe I can actually do it since I still have it all.
     
  19. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

    The Voice Maestro Member
    932
    778
    93
    Cyber City
    Mega Man Zero: The Definitive Dub
    This goes back to my original post about how a mass audience would react to a loop. Try to keep in mind that less than 1% of players will even see a game's ending, let alone have a firm grasp on how to react to stopping during a loop upside down. Think about why Mario Kart has an anti-gravity gimmick preventing you from falling off a track if you stop accelerating while upside down. Think about why Mario has been cutting back on the advanced movement it originally pioneered for 3D, and greatly simplifying it with 3D World and Bowser's Fury. Think about how much playtesting the best developers in the world do to try and compromise with stupidity, and how much work goes into trying to save the player from themselves. Franchises like Mario AND Sonic are meant to appeal to a wide variety of customers, including (very) young children and elderly people. And despite 3D gaming being 30 years old at this point, the general public still can't grasp it like they can with 2D games.

    A player is at the top of a loop and they stop and fall. What happens? How does the camera react in a way that acts normal 100% of the time and never glitches out? Is there an invisible wall separating the first half of the loop from the second half, and could it possibly be glitched through? If there is no wall, then what's stopping a player from simply jumping straight to the other side and not going through the loop at all? What happens to any kind of effects, dialogue, or any kind of scripted sequence that's meant to occur during those "epic camera angles" if something goes wrong? Can we guarantee the player doesn't get disoriented in a way that doesn't induce motion sickness? Can we guarantee they don't start running in the opposite direction thinking they made it through? Can we guarantee the player intuitively knows precisely what they did wrong and how to fix it, and most of all, doesn't get frustrated?

    To many people here, these questions seem ludicrous. Like, OF COURSE it's obvious how to handle loops. OF COURSE they wouldn't do something stupid if something goes wrong, and OF COURSE they're obviously so simple to solve that the very notion of it should take no more than 5 minutes. But you don't represent a mass audience. You don't represent the kind of customers SEGA are trying to work with for this franchise. And I've heard the argument of "oh, well, Sonic doesn't need to appeal to everyone" but that's not how this works. That mindset is incompatible with a flagship franchise that's meant to be the corporate mascot.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  20. BenoitRen

    BenoitRen

    Tech Member
    396
    179
    43
    The Joebro64: "The Sonic expansion for Lego Dimensions is the best 3D Sonic game and I'm tired of pretending it's not."

    Also The Joebro64: "Sonic Colors is the best 3D Sonic game"

    Pick one.