Badniks & Bosses

Reminds me of a post I made a month ago.

The only way staff realizes what they want is when you are making it themselves. At which point: 'Hey a staff member is making this so hands off because their art is LAW.'
So you really can't ask of them for the ideal HD configuration of the sprite because at that point they are already creating it themselves and you will never match their vision no matter how hard you try.

And the same thing is going to happen anyway. Someone will work on it, conform the art to user postings because staff has no input; they just watch users bicker and roll their eyes. Until the day comes when staff gets around to declaring that your art is deemed unnecessary because staff will do it now so =P.

 

True.

 

I know exactly what I want from the art, and have made it absolutely clear in my guide. If you can't give the courtesy of following that simple guide, which spells everything out for you step by step, I am not going to waste my time any further with you. Similarly, there are project goals posted for a reason. If you can't follow those goals, which again there aren't that many of, then I will not be wasting my time with you.

We have a very clear idea of what we want. The problem is when we try to make a statement on how we think something should be (e.g. the spiker), it is always met with either constant complaining, or us being outright ignored. Of course then when you can't deliver, the blame goes right back to us for some reason or another.

And yes, our art IS law. So when something doesn't match our art, you can be sure it will not be accepted, simple as that. That by no means bars you from submitting art matching the style, but when I see a post that has a gritty texture all over it, it's not going to be accepted. I don't care if you think it looks better or realistic or whatever, if it doesn't match our art, it will not be in the game. So when we ask you to change something, and you choose not to, don't come complaining when it is not included in the game.

Unless you want the game to just be a bunch of random textures which don't match the sprites which don't match tiles, we all need to conform to one style. You say we need to give you incentive to keep working on this project. Well that's what I did in showing you my process for making badniks, Gambit with the tunnel, and possibly ever more things for the future. It goes both way though. If you want us to be here every step of the way for you, you have to be willing to take our directions and build off them, instead of trying to make everything a constant struggle all the time.

Edit: I should note I'm not directing this at a single person, but the community as a whole.

 

I'm not certain what you mean by this paragraph here. Unless my brain is clicking wrong here, did you mean that the users submit art, you accept it, and then if someone else comes around and makes a separate version, you deny it unless its absolutely better?

Or that the actual staff, too, is working on their own version of the art?

 

I try to be as objective as possible, and I can say that I see your point CN, but I also see what MaximusDM is saying. I want the staff to make the final pieces; I do not have the skill, the vast majority of us here to not have the skill. I try to do what I can, which is offer ideas, concepts and critique. Seeing as how the staff generally wants to make the sprites themselves (lest they find an ideological twin), I can't see much wrong with the way I choose to interact on this site.

It is true, people who are trying to submit a piece to be included in the game ought to follow the god damn rules which they have been directed to follow, I too feel frustration when they are ignored time and time again. However, I am not attempting to create a final piece; I am trying to expand ideas so that when a direction is chosen on a given element I can rest assured that it is the best rendition. BUT, regardless of whether a concept meets the professional standards of a final piece, I expect the staff to give some direction on what they want, so one draft may be held over another. But this never happens, and we lowly "members" are treated like flies.

I'm not capable of making official art, and it appears as though there is no longer any role here for those like me, which is 99%. Perhaps what is worse is the distain which is directed at us for failing to live up to a standard the staff doesn't actually want anyone to attain, because no one can make something exactly as a staff member would have anyway. As such, the discussions we have are therefore USELESS. We are ridiculed for discussing something forever, when really all we want is for someone to say, "this is best, or add this from this and that from that".

The staff should recognize by now that they are going to make all of the final pieces (they prefer it this way), at least for the time being. So what is the real argument for the lack of feedback, I am only trying to help you. This entire relationship is fundamentally flawed. That is what MaximusDM is saying...

 

I'm saying, if art is submitted that is not high enough quality, it is not going to be added in the alpha. We will add the version that looks the best, and meshes with the rest of the art.


Concept work from you and everyone else is invaluable to us. It helps us get a clear idea of what we need to be working towards. As for us not knowing what we want, when an object is first starting out, we don't have a clear idea, same as you. Through concepts and mockups, everyone can start generating better ideas. The problem is it can get out of hand with crazy ideas, and when we step in to stop it and get things back on track, or even submit ideas of our own, there is an outcry that we aren't allowing everyone to contribute.

I feel I have given ample amounts of feedback for the badniks, I went very in depth on what exactly I wanted changed and how, and was outright ignored multiple times. If that is going to be happening, it makes it impossible to keep order here.

It seems the mistake keeps getting made that when a staff member says "I think that could be cool to add" that it needs to be taken as anything other than a suggestion (this happened when talking about the door in HTZ). If I am not being clear that it is just anything other than a suggestion, I apologize, but unless I am specifically telling you it needs to be fixed, nothing is set in stone.

I have never seen a staff member show disdain for work that isn't up to our art standard. We are happy to have concepts submitted. We will, however, show disdain if we ask you to edit something, and you feel the need to ignore us. I made a whole guide in order to keep comments saying we are not helping you out from appearing, which has yet to be acknowledged. When we feel our feedback is actually being taken into consideration and not just ignored, we will be much more willing to help you guys out more often.

 

This is how I see it...

 

Only thing wrong with this is that there were like two tree concepts being thrown about and they both suffered the same problem of looking uninteresting. Several of the revisions weren't even noticeable, and everyone kept pushing for one of them to get in when there could most certainly be better options out there. I'm not saying either of them are ill put together by any means, as I'm sure a decent amount of work went into them, but they just aren't what we want. Part of the issue is the original tree sprite, it's just awful. There are no interesting features on it that can be translated into something cool, so it requires some deviating thought on how it could look. Trust me, we've all had trouble getting ideas for this thing, it's not just you guys.

If I feel up to it later today (yay class ends) I may try shading that concept for the trunk I had awhile back, or I may try thinking up something new. I still don't know about the top, though.

 

Just to clarify. I'll post this on the HTZ board as well.

 

But ideas and concepts shouldn't be "getting off track". They should be ON TRACK from the get-go. The only reason things get off track is being there is no input as far as what staff wants and member arguments run amuck and the art tries to please user member's opinions.

Now maybe if you said that the we SHOULDN'T be working off the original HTZ tree sprite IN THE FIRST PLACE then maybe this would have been such an issue. Because so many users has put in their tree concepts COMPLETELY based off the sprite since no staff member said otherwise from the beginning that we have been working on the wrong tree the entire time!

I tried to work with you, because the staff ideas were REALLY out there to the point that it didn't even look like the tree originally did, but I guess obviously that is the point now. But no one knows what your ideal tree is! And since we officially aren't working off the sprite on the tree because:

then what are we working on? We don't know. YOU don't know. No body knows.

Guide to having Users make what you want:
So when we are supposed to make an HD version of a sprite: CONCEPT or OTHERWISE,
Be CLEAR as to what you want it to be. Is the sprite 'officially' awful and we shouldn't be working off it? That is something that would be good to know before people start working on it.
What should we be taking from the official artwork (if applicable)?
What should we be taking from the sprite?
What is open to interpretation?: And more importantly, what is STAFF'S 'official' interpretation?
Post reference pictures and/or quick sketches (By hand(scanned or good quality camera) / By Mouse / By Drawing Tablet).

And if you can do all of that ^
without starting work on the staff's hd sprite, then everyone will be on the same page.

 

Sonuw is one of the few people who have actually tried to deal with just about every suggestion thrown at them (and I mean staff or otherwise, most often "otherwise"). I find it pretty disgusting that he's just being ignored. What's he supposed to do? Wait 10 years until you put up Sky Chase Zone as a goal? Hah...

Well if you really want him to just give it up, then I guess that'll just have to be done. I think it's a shame though.

Totally totally true. This is what I was thinking the whole time I read CN's post. And in fact... when I read most staff posts. "Wahhh, no one's listening to us!!". But for heaven's sake... all you really do is put up guides and halt discussions. What we really want is a bit of input on the ACTUAL PIECES being worked on! All we seem to get is occasionally "this one seems okay". Or... "[insert staff member here] will now be working on this piece". Or you then go and complain that everyone is going in circles and not getting anywhere. Well what do you fluffing expect if you're just going to watch from the sidelines?? The project needs LEADERS. Not just law makers.

Thankyou. Because that's just about all I and anyone else can do now. But you know, things wouldn't need to get so "out of hand" if you'd be more vocal about what direction to take a bit earlier on. And rather than just saying "okay, we're sick of this pointless discussion, it's going to stop", why not just help us get back on track by giving us some feedback? So we can actually get something out of it all...

For heaven's sake, does it not say anything to you lot that just about all community members have complained about the way things are being run at some point or other? Wake up.

You can't just make a guide and say "right, get to it". It's a continual process. The actual feedback part is what we want more of.

Having said that, I do appreciate the time you put into the guides. They're very useful, but they're also only part of the equation.

It's the same old thing all over again, but the staff won't listen to anyone but themselves. We're complaining because from our perspective, there's something wrong with the way things are going. But what does our opinion matter? Wrong attitude.

 

This needs a lot more emphasis. Right now I see a bunch of concepts being produced, but with no staff saying, "Right, we'll use this one - make it look good," or even anything of the sort.

In fact, it seems to be a lot closer to "Here's a room. Draw some concepts, and we'll decide when you can move on. I'll be back in a few years to check up on you."

 

If nobody knows, then I guess someone should start brainstorming instead of just continuing along the same path as everyone else, and I'm relatively sure you can think for yourself on the rest of these. We've said enough and you've been around long enough to see how things work. At this point you're basically just complaining about having artistic freedom.

We do post reference pictures when we feel they're necessary and/or have something good in mind to use as a reference picture, and we do post our interpretations and/or talk about them. We just haven't done a whole lot for hill top to compare with anything yet.

 

Let's talk boss battles then. We'll probably have a Hard Mode in the game, so we need to fix any exploitation trick there is for each of the bosses and make them harder without too many visual extras. I'm thinking longer invulnerability for all bosses.

EHZ: Rotor blades remain on the mobile / Robotnik blasts from 1 side to another, leaving a trail of fire
CPZ: Robotnik is higher up and has a faster refill and the entire floor rotates.
ARZ: You can't stand on totems and 2 arrows fire at once.
CNZ: An extra bumper, so you can't spin-dash up the wall.
HTZ: <a href="http://www.xmission.com/~jake_reed/files/other/HardHTZBoss.zip" target="_blank">Link</a>
MCZ: More stalactites, Everything gets dark
OOZ: No oil to stand on / The oil on fire and the tail flying over you hurts.
MZ: Add multiple patterns to Bumper/Respawn balloons.
WFZ: <a href="http://www.xmission.com/~jake_reed/files/other/WFZHardBoss6.zip" target="_blank">Link</a>
DEZ1: ?
DEZ2: ?

The text in grey are little ideas, the white text are ideas I think are a perfect fit.

 

WFZ: the lazer can destroy the platforms also and they re-appear out of the machine that emits them in the first place, the lazer could also have a shorter charge time or move faster.
MZ: the balloon robotniks could have the attack pattern that the regualr robotnik has when he only has 1 hit left, so they dart around the screen firing their lazer.

 

Assuming there will be a hard mode...

For Hill Top Zone, the platforms could spontaneously burst into flames if lava jumps onto the grass (similar to MHZ in Sonic 1) and then the fire subsides after 10 seconds or so... In Metropolis Zone, some of the eggs (or whatever they are) that orbit around Robotnik could be impenetrable or re-spawn quickly, giving the player less of a chance to hit Robotnik.

 

The destruction of the platforms would make things easier, actually. The claustrophobia is what makes this boss so hard.

I had the same idea a while ago, but if you just kill the balloons once they spawn, it won't make anything harder. You gave me a good idea though: How about those balloons don't hurt you but act like the bumpers in Casino Night?

I like this idea, but it would require a completely new object ie. the fire.

 

Ahh, fair point...
In that case, how about jets of flame (taken from Robotnik's flame-thrower) fired vertically and randomly occurring out of the lava making it hard to hit Robotnik and also catches you out if not careful jumping between platforms?