Dunno about Sonic R, SA1 and SA2 but there is definitely a good point here. "Hardcore fans" is not a demographic you can cater to, to begin with. Not because they are hard to please, but because who are these people? What is the age range? Gender distribution? Why do they like what they like? You can make educated guesses, but if you're going to gamble $90 million on an educated guess, you might as well do sports betting. For a global brand like Sonic, this becomes even harder. If you own the platform the product will be in, this is easier: it's you who gets to say who the product is for, people flock towards it and become the target audience. In an adaptation, that's impossible on all levels. Catering to hardcore fans was never an option.
The example wasn't meant to be that specific, just an easy reference for high metrics for a single release not always leading to the continued franchise engagement that these studios are actually looking for. There are probably better examples to use, though, and I think Sonic the Hedgehog 3 will be fine if it's any consolation. I'm just trying to say a high initial viewership for Knuckles only tells us a lot of people were excited by the prospect of more Knuckles. It doesn't tell us anything about how it landed. You have to dig deeper for that.
i don't necessarily disagree that they don't have to cater to hardcore fans, but i do not think that the decisions being made by paramount to appeal to general audiences are actually working. maybe someone who knows more about mainstream tastes can tell me, but i genuinely think that the movies have been successful in spite of the attempts to appeal to mainstream audiences (i.e. giving sonic a cop dad, exceedingly generic score, making him a literal child etc) rather than because of them. it seems difficult to imagine a child watching through paramount sonic-verse and being like "yeah, this knuckles guy is cool, but my favorite character is wade wilson!" i also don't think those choices make the movies appeal more to adults either. a few friends of mine who are not insane about sonic came along with me when i went to see the second movie and the overwhelming consensus was "we want less weird digressions about the sister-in-law of james marsden and more sonic." i think the sonic movies are successful because sonic is cool and people like him - the same reason that he's survived the many droughts and dark ages that the franchise has gone through over the years.
I personally loved Lost World, and I know that's not really a popular thing to think. I know it's weird, and it's not like a regular Sonic game, but I think it's cause it's so weird that I can't help but like it. It's almost like it took a Mario Galaxy approach to things, and that made it very unique. I also love the music and level design overall of that game. My other unpopular opinion, at least I think, is that I think Sonic Mania is just alright. Admittedly when I first played it it seemed amazing, but after numerous replays, its flaws really shine through. It's biggest fault, at least as far as I'm concerned, is that the "remakes" of the OG levels are excellent, with cool new additions, but the "original" levels created for the game are, more often than not, just really confusing and not very good. Some have a great theme for a level, but the way to get through it is then almost incoherent. Then again I'm dumb so maybe the problem is me lol I also LOVED Sonic Superstars, which I know also isn't a very popular opinion, though I admit that it falls apart a bit in the second half.
I like Superstars's gimmicks. My problem with the game was that it somehow felt slow despite the camera being so zoomed in.
Honestly this is a problem that has existed all the way back since Sonic Adventure. For some reason the camera has never matched the speed of Sonic since the Genesis days. I don't know if it's because a camer in 3D space is harder to maintain (because the camera in Mania works like a treat and that's a 2D throwback) or what but you're not wrong. I always felt like I was too fast in Superstars, resulting often in hitting things I otherwise wouldn't have hit.
Come to think of it, the thrill in early Sonic games has always come more from the moments when Sonic seems to be out of control than the moments when Sonic is running fast, necessarily and strictly speaking. And that has always been due to the camera not catching up with Sonic while he's in the air. And I don't have memories of that happening in Superstars, even in the fastest stages like Speed Jungle, mayhe because they're so focused on fast ground action. Maybe I'm just remembering wrong! But yeah I do remember hitting things I didn't think I would, especially in Frozen Base.
I suppose it's also dependent on what level of 'out-of-controlledness' we enjoy. Being able to spike yourself into the skies in the OG tetralogy is thrilling because most of the time, after the camera plays catch-up as you state, you're basically contained to the space you're stuck to seeing - it's a thrilling moment of self-reflection as you sit and gaze at the beautifully made backdrops... Before promptly plummeting back towards the Zone and realizing you made a grave mistake. Most likely thing that'll happen at this point is bumping into a very inconveniently-placed hazard because you can't really prepare for that, which is the trade-off I suppose. Based on my recollection of playing 3D Sonic titles, the bliss I tend to get is from the perceivable skip of a Zone, like you're cheating the landmass designed specifically to cater to you, and a lessened severity due to being given proper camera control (getting to see all the hazards ahead) - SA1/2 and '06 has a lot of this. SA1's aren't *majorly* deliberate, and typically require you to be in the right place at the right time - I specifically recall this one Sonic adoring dude I know finding a spot on Twinkle Park's tower that you really shouldn't be able to get to, enjoying the view, and then IIRC catapulting himself off of the tower for funsies. Ice Cap and Windy Valley are examples of purely deliberate out-of-control moments, with them catapulting the player into the air with tornadoes or for impromptu snowboarding... Forces (accidentally) features this in one of the final Modern Sonic stages where you just get to blast over the whole beginning portion, that's the only good time I had from that game.
Interesting, I feel a lot like you in 3D games, but that's why they evoke the self reflection you're talking about. I know there's nothing else I should be doing and if something appears, I will have time to react. In 2D, it feels tense because as soon as Sonic escapes the camera I have to make sure I land safely and, since controlling his air movement is tighter in 2D, it's something I can do. If feels more engaging, but 3D provides this vertigo and this sort of introspective feeling. Both can be great.
For what it's worth, my comments about 3D Sonic and its camera issues are not meant to infer that I dislike 3D Sonic at all lol Most of my favorite Sonic games are, in fact, 3D ones. I just feel like the camera is...heavier, somehow? And it follows you less, except perhaps in the moments that are scripted camera positions, like running along the dock in front of the whale in Sonic Adventure. I just feel like the one thing 2D Sonic really had perfect was its camera, and whether that's because it's 2D or not remains to be answered.
as tails I don't even bother doing the last fourth of Windy Valley - you really can just fly all the way to the end after you're launched up into the air at one point, it's so funny
Too many things to quote so I’m not going to majorly pile on alerts for folk, but yeah, Tails’ stages in Adventure 1 is a pretty notorious example of irreparable skippage - Forcing him into a mech was probably for the better of the handcrafted stages ST had in store, though I wish he was given some contained segments interspersed throughout the levels where he could just be his free lil’ self… Sort of what ‘06 did, I suppose. Continuing on a tangentially related thought, I kind of wished the vistas you could hypothetically fly over felt more, say… Uncharted-like. I played the final PS4 title, ‘A Thief’s End’, a bit ago and distinctly recall just how massive the watery caverns were, the length of spiralling towers and the looming mountains that beckon your wanton desire to explore. I probably stated this before, but if you could have those same expansive vistas freely traversable as a (running?)walking-sim experience, maybe be able to purchase Zones a-la Halo 2’s Multiplayer Map Pack with a cliche photo mode, SEGA could make absolutely crazy bank.
Tails being able to optionally skip what's mostly a hold-forward-to-win section of a level isn't a problem to me. His SA1 flight is certainly overpowered but damn if it isn't fun. Like a flying spin dash. The real problem is the levels never accommodated for where you could go with all that flight power, and ST's solution there was just to go hard in the exact opposite direction and make the flight feel stiff and linear to the point of being excessive. I don't like Tails in the mech but I prefer it that way if they're going to inhibit his controls to death anyway. He just feels so gross and heavy out of the mech in Heroes and 06. Even regardless of how unfun it is, it just doesn't make sense for a character who's supposed to be able to keep up with Sonic to be so slow and limited.
I think Tails just shouldn't be playable in 3D if they can't find a way to escape a 1:1 transition. It's not really common for every mechanic to make the jump from 2D to 3D in other franchises, so I don't think it should be an obligation here.
Im surprised it hasnt been mentioned yet, but as far as a "balanced" 3D Tails, I think Final Horizons has it easy. He too can become absolutely broken thanks to his power boost flight but before then, his flying fits well in the massive overworld and he is fairly balanced, if a bit kneecapped without a homing attack. I think iterating on that tails would probably work out fairly well, especially if he can be used in areas specifically designed around him, but even then they may need to restrict him just a bit more to not make it ridiculous
since it's sorta relevant to the tails conversation, here's an unpopular take i have had for years: sa1 is much better than sa2, and a huge part of that is directly due to the mech tails levels. generally, when talking about the non-sonic parts of the game, sa1 just completely blows 2 out of the water. a huge amount of sa2's runtime is dedicated to levels that are actually just terrible. in particular, the tails levels are basically uniformly garbage. putting aside how awful the mechs just feel to pilot in general, the level design in the tails levels is chock-full of unreactable projectiles falling from off-screen, moving platforms that you're prone to just slide off of, and enemies dropping from the sky directly in front of you. compare that to sa1, where the worst thing that can be said of the non-sonic segments is that they're insubstantial. even big - admittedly a huge low point - only lasts an hour or so on a first playthrough. i'm a sick freak, so i'm still going to go for all emblems in both games just for the hell of it, but sa2 has been way more of a drag overall. even dx's missions have been more fun than trying to get a ranks on some of those mech and emerald levels. aside from that, when comparing speed levels to speed levels, repeat playthroughs really make clear how much closer sa1's levels are to the original trilogy in terms of freedom of movement. the skill ceiling for the sonic levels is genuinely immense - having not played the game in years it was really gratifying for me to revisit levels like speed highway and red mountain and see how many crazy skips and stylish optimizations are possible when you actually try to engage with and master the art of the spindash jump. both games are extraordinarily janky, but sa1's jank expands the freedom of the player, and sa2's jank makes you terrified of exercising any freedom at all. in sa1, if you jump off of the skyscraper in speed highway you're rewarded with a huge shortcut that more-or-less sends you straight to the wall-running section. in sa2, i jumped off a rail with the intent of landing on the L-sharped grind platforms in final chase and clipped directly through and died. that about sums it up.
Man, much as I love SA2, I have to admit you're pretty much right when it comes to the way the game plays. In terms of story I think SA2 blows SA1 out of the water, but overall, the other character levels outside of perhaps the Knuckles ones (which I personally love but I understand why most don't lol) are pretty blah to downright bad, and the Sonic/Shadow stuff is the only really fun stuff to play, mechanically, in SA2. Those Tails and Robotnik mech levels are really bad, whereas in SA1, I actually like everyones campaign, even Bigs just because it's so different.
I've seen a lot of people say they found Mania's Encore Mode disappointing, but I personally loved it and wish more Sonic games had something like it for their endgame content. The aesthetic changes and layout tweaks made for a way more interesting New Game Plus mode than most New Game Plus modes, in my opinion. In general I just love seeing Sonic zones at different times of day or in different seasons and that goes a long way towards engaging me. It's something I wish Frontiers' NG+ took notes from because I found Frontiers NG+ boring as shit, lol
I definitely enjoyed Encore Mode. The small object layout changes are more than enough to trip up my muscle memory of Mania. And is in that sweet point of difficulty where I don't necessarily feel like I'm playing a little kid's game but not too hard that I'm frustrated. The partner switching mechanic is loads of fun too, my only wish would've been the option to carry over this switching mechanic into Mania Mode.
