The younger fandom, and how they learned from exactly none of our mistakes.

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Josh, Jan 6, 2020.

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  1. Zephyr

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    See, the three gameplay styles you mention definitely need major work, but if we're supposing that a remake would make substantial changes to the gameplay like that, then I think we ought to focus our demands elsewhere (at least at first). Like Sonic's gameplay.

    If they remake Adventure from scratch in 2020, or later, they'd have no excuse for it to not have a complete Sonic physics engine this time. Also give Sonic back the ability to curl into a ball (without using the Spin Dash), like Tails and Knuckles still have. Removing mechanics can make for interesting followups, if done right; I don't think taking the billiards out of Sonic's platforming was "doing it right" (particularly since adding billiards to Mario was how they made Sonic in the first place), and having done so is probably the greatest blight on the entire game's design.

    In lieu of improvements like these, none of the bug/camera/visual improvements endemic to a typical remake would really matter to me; none of it would really make the game much more fun to play. I'm used to the bugs and camera already, I imagine I can mod the game if I want it to look nicer, and I can just not play the parts of the game I don't like when I go back for short sessions.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2020
  2. Overlord

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    It's not even that - that statement has NEVER been true. SA2 is not the best Sonic game - this isn't true in 2020, it wasn't true in 2010, and it STILL wasn't true in 2001. There's plenty of online discussion from the time confirming this. There's some full on blinkers going here.
     
  3. RDNexus

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    I just remembered something about Generations.
    Was confirmed that there was an Adventure Sonic?
    Thinking properly about it, I don't see how it'd fit.
    Classic Sonic had 2D gameplay. Modern Sonic had 3D gameplay.
     
  4. Vanishing Vision

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    No way, man. Make Big's stages into Sega Bass Fishing. The exact same gameplay, instead of the sort-of similar gameplay they are already. Mostly just boost the pacing up a whole lot.
     
  5. MH MD

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    Both Kiwami 1 and 2 were way better than the original though, Kiwami 1 added more backstory to Nishiki that made the game and story way better, Majima everywhere is a great addition, and in the end of the day it is still side content anyway that you can safely ignore and original games always had goofy side content anyway - let's not even talk about the goofy dub of the og game that didn't let me feel the game was "dark" or anything-, Kiwami 2 was even better and people really exaggerate the "cut content" when at the end of the day it was such a small part of the og game that doesn't really matter and affect the story in anyway, they still kept the story of that part and that's whats counts, they still delivered the main story in the best way, the game is full of content that is longer than the original game, that's without even touching the Majima side content which i didn't even play, but it's still good value

    if anything, i would want them to make Adventure Kiwami now, for as special as the og adventure game was, that game was ROUGH, they can make a better game easily with little effort, if some unimportant little parts got lost in the way then so be it, and you can still go back to the og game anyway if you want that awful lip sync as part of the original experience that won't get recreated faithfully in the remake
     
  6. TheInvisibleSun

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    I've said this before, but I'd rather them do something completely bonkers with Big, as long as it's fun. Instead of fishing, he could have a more action oriented gameplay that would involve him barreling through enemies and obstacles with his sheer size, using his fishing rod like a grappling hook and flying into things like a wrecking ball, with some light swimming/platforming elements in between. Perhaps have fishing be a single/multiplayer mini-game or something?
     
  7. Now that I think about it, the Werehog gameplay would have been absolutely hilarious if you were playing as Big...
     
  8. Vanishing Vision

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    That's funny, a while ago I thought up a joke Big spin-off game that would play like DMC or Bayonetta, and star him as a tough, cool action hero cutting down enemies with his "Death Angler" custom fishing rod/sword. Jokes aside, I really do like Big's character design, and the thought of him having some slightly more combat-focused platforming action as a gameplay style isn't a bad idea.
     
  9. Gestalt

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    Everyone go play Sonic Heroes and leave that poor cat alone. :)
     
  10. That's subjective, but there are fans of the PS2 originals that didn't like the Kiwami remakes. And Kiwami 2 straight up cut an entire HUB area, I wouldn't call that a small cut. And no, I don't care how 'rough' the original SA1 is, I don't want a remake. If SEGA did go through with an SA1 remake, I'd probably skip it out of principle.
     
  11. Dek Rollins

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    I seem to remember hearing nothing but "Sonic Adventure 2 is the best one" growing up. I don't agree with it and never have, but I was surprised when I started seeing a lot of negativity directed towards it.
     
  12. Frostav

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    I said this earlier in the thread but if you were a kid in the 2003-2006 era of the internet in Sonic fan communities of other kids your age (those born around 1995 like me, whose first consoles would have been the gamecube), then the idea that SA2 was the best Sonic game and the best game ever wasn't stated very much often--because it was automatically assumed to be true by all of us 8-13 year olds on deviantart sonic communties so strongly that the idea of it not being the best Sonic game was a fundamentally absurd proposition on the level of "the sky is green" or "gravity doesn't exist".
     
  13. Dek Rollins

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    Born in '99 and first "current" console was GameCube (actual first would be Genesis), but to me nothing was ever better than Sonic 2. Speaking of which, I was also under the impression growing up that Sonic 2 was generally the fan favorite, and was surprised to see 3&K given the highest praise by so many people later on, such high praise that they dunk on the first two.
     
  14. Is this true or is this just a theory? Honestly I’ve heard it before but I tried to look it up and I could never find any confirmation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
  15. Josh

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    So like, what did you guys think of mainstream publications and critics tearing the series, and even that game specifically, down at the time? Or were you even aware of it? Because in my experience, it was MUCH worse outside of the fandom-designated spaces. Sonic fans at least wanted to like and defend Sonic games, and while we had our criticisms, most fans didn't really turn on the 3D entries en masse until 06 poisoned everything. OUTside of the community? Psh, Sega _and_ Sonic were more and more of a punching bag, and as a gamer on the internet from 03-06, it was kind of inescapable. One reason fans were so hurt by 06 is because it seemed to confirm what all of Sonic's worst critics had been saying for years.

    Something that may be difficult for younger fans to wrap their heads around is WHY, exactly, the series is held to such ludicrously high, or even seemingly-unfair standards. You see this a lot lately. "Sonic Adventure hasn't aged any worse than Mario 64 or Crash Bandicoot!"

    First of all, yeah, it has. Look at how it reviewed in '99 versus the DX release in 2003, and compare how Mario 64 reviewed in '96 versus its Virtual Console release in '06, or heck, how the N-Sane Trilogy held up in 2017. Sonic Adventure was a ridiculously ambitious game that tried to do a LOT of things, and it didn't do most of them particularly well. I love it, it's one of my favorite games, but I understand how it looks through a modern lens.

    Anyway, the reason Sonic was held to high standards is simply because it _was_ one of gaming's icons. To quote IGN's 2002 review of SA2: Battle, "...the franchise still has a long way to go to bring the glory of the 2D masterpieces into the next-generation 3D world." Sonic was the franchise that brought Sega to the top of the industry, he knocked Mario off of his throne, and he was inextricably linked to that same standard of quality. Imagine a mainline Mario or Zelda game EVER coming out with a lack of polish. That's what was expected of Sonic, he was supposed to be on _that_ level, because for years, he _was_. Games like Bomberman: Act Zero or Bionic Commando might've been disasters, but those franchises, beloved as they were, weren't SONIC.

    And again, I'm saying this as someone who _loves_ most of those 3D titles, Unleashed's daytime stages and ALL of Generations are some of my absolute favorite things I've _ever_ played, and I still love both of the Adventure games more than I love _most_ other games! But I can see the bigger picture. I saw someone earlier today talking about how much the series has been struggling for the past 10 years, and I was like, "Only the past TEN!?"

    It's not that the nostalgia of the 2D games caused people to too-harshly evaluate the 3D titles, because at the time, the Genesis games hadn't even been out long enough to _become_ nostalgic for most people. It was because the 3D titles didn't live up to the same standards of quality, consistency, or accessibility that the 2D titles had, and that's something Sega's sadly been struggling with for 20 years, now.
     
  16. My time on the internet was very limited in those days as I didn't have a computer of my own, so I never really hung around any form of social media back then. I didn't really pay any attention to game reviews until around 2006-ish, and I was 13 back then. Even then, though, I just kinda ignored the journalists and just kept playing Sonic games because I enjoyed them (even if I was mocked for doing so).

    The first time a game review really got under my skin was probably when IGN reviewed Sonic Unleashed. I was pretty baffled that they gave the game a lower score than Sonic 06, and said that the Wii/PS2 versions were the better versions of the game. Then, I kinda went right back to not caring what journalists think about the series, especially now of days. I just play what I like or whatever strikes my fancy. If it doesn't look good to me, I just skip it or, in the case of Sonic games, I'd just wait to see what the Sonic fanbase says about it before buying it.
     
  17. Vanishing Vision

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    I've been thinking recently about the relationship between Sonic and mainstream game media, and how I remember it in particular. I personally don't remember too much negativity involving the Adventure games around 03, other than DX getting flak for introducing more glitches and technical problems that weren't in the DC release. SA2B was hot shit in my circle of friends, and I remember it being generally seen as a good game. Nintendo Power was the magazine I was reading at the time, and it popped up in a few "Best of GCN" lists now and then. Of course, I wasn't reading every bit of game media I could back then, nor was I using the Internet much for video game discussion, so I could've just had a limited view.

    Heroes was the game where I first saw the rags "turning on Sonic". I remember a page of reviews for it that seemed to be split between positive and average, and I remember hearing a good bit of "Heroes sucks compared to SA2". Shadow expanded on this, all the jokes about the violence, edgy plot, swearing (I remember a hysterical forum post where someone loved the idea of the profanity and specifically hoped Knuckles would say "shit" in a future game), although funny enough Nintendo Power gave it a fairly good review, with the graphics being the biggest complaint (claiming it looked like a Dreamcast game). The one-two punch of 06 and Secret Rings sealed the deal. I remember some really brief hype for Secret Rings to "make up" for 06, that faded about as fast as my patience for that dinosaur egg mission.

    I feel that I've been seeing most of the disdain for the Adventure games in the last 10 or 12 years, and that 08 to 11 is when a lot of the "Sonic doesn't work in 3D, shitty friends, etc." really took off. The original Sonic Cycle image is mostly based on Unleashed after all.
     
  18. qwertysonic

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    I think a big thing that made people like Sonic Adventure 2 is that while it's a sequel to Sonic Adventure 1, SA2B came out on the Gamecube before SADX. The Gamecube being a much more popular console than the Dreamcast meant that SA2(B) was the first Sonic game that people got to experience since 1994 that wasn't garbage/racing/on a failed console like the Saturn etc. I grew up playing the Genesis games, but in 1996 got Mario 64 and forgot about Sonic. Then when SA2B came out I was like, "Holy crap Sonic games are good again" and all of my friends who didn't play the Genesis games were like, "Holy crap Sonic is good". Then I got them to play the Genesis games on Mega Collection and they were like, "Holy crap old Sonic is good too".

    SA2(B) was the first real sonic game most people got to play since the Genesis games. And it is legitimately good, not best game evar, but good. Nintendo Power liked it (that's all I can remember from the publications of the time), but more importantly the friends I had that didn't grow up playing the classics enjoyed it. And enjoyed it enough to buy Sonic Mega Collection and then enjoyed that. I think Mega Collection is a big part of SA2's legacy that we don't often thing about.
     

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  19. Nova

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    I'm... 99% sure this is just a theory. Compelling as it is, I highly doubt that much thought was put into it.

    This. I was part of the GameWinners Sonic forums at the time SA2 came out and I remember a Newgrounds flash video made by members called 'The Sonic Team' (meaning the forum members, not the dev team - confusing, I know). They were dedicated to "ensuring a game like Sonic Adventure 2 is never made again!"
     
  20. Actually the idea of what amounts to a super-cartoonish version of Bayonetta/DMC would be really fun, especially if they gave him all sorts of goofy finishing moves. As far as making the fishing a mini-game goes I could live with that seeing as how unpopular the gameplay was to start with (I personally didn't mind it but I'm slightly deranged like that haha).


    I'm a big fan of the Adventure games, but I honestly don't think they're "the best Sonic has ever been" and I sure as hell wouldn't rate them as the best games of their era by a long shot. On that same token, I wouldn't rank them as being the worst games, or even the worst Sonic games of their time or today. They're in this kind of area of being 'good but not amazing' that a lot of 3d games from their era tend to fall into, and I'm personally alright with that. I don't expect every Sonic game to be a landmark title that defines platformers for their era as the Genesis games are often treated as, I just want to be entertained for a few hours to justify my money spent, and I feel like a good chunk of the series accomplishes that handily.
     
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