What do you think Sonic Team were going for when they showed the place in flames? That the echidnas had decided to set their land on fire for kicks, as opposed to there having been a confrontation? Depicting a place on fire is an extremely common trope in fiction to convey that a major physical conflict had taken place there. I wasn't trying to imply that they were a grand prosperous civilization that used the emeralds during the time of her grandma, or that most echidnas knew all about the emeralds. Just that the knowledge was more common at some point in the past. It might have been something from the distant past that had been passed down through generations until becoming forgotten, with Tikal's grandma being the last one who knew about it until she passed it down to Tikal. Fair enough on the "band of ruffians" thing, though. They weren't that peaceful pre-Pachacamac. The emerald shrine was right there in their land. Tikal didn't discover it exploring the wild, it was next to their city. When you talk to her as Tails, she recites the mantra and says "I'm not sure what it means, but I'm caught up in the number seven. It's the same number as the amount of Emeralds there are..." Note she didn't even find it necessary elaborate on what emeralds she was talking about. She just referred to them as if they were common knowledge there. Unless you mean that they weren't using the emeralds, which I agree with.
The bridge might've been easily crossed, but as the guidebook says all attempts to get the emeralds were thwarted.
It says all attempts to rob the emeralds were thwarted. I'm sure Chaos wouldn't mind someone borrowing a cup of energy from them so long as they don't try to make off with the Emeralds themselves.
Indeed, Perfect Chaos is simply a result of growing frustrated with the Echidna tribe's wasteful use of energy to murder Chao. "Aw man Pachacamac now I gotta give you MORE!"
There was also a barrier: https://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_Adventure_-_NPC_Script_(Knuckles) https://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_Adventure_-_NPC_Script_(Big) It's not their land. https://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_Adventure_-_NPC_Script_(Knuckles)
Oh, neat, thank you for this. Hmm, I still think it plausible that those with peaceful intent could get through, hence Tikal, but... I wonder how they got through when the attack occurred.
I just would like to know if those several external sources, like all of those Windii's obscure translations, shouldn't be here on Retro somewhere.
It has been quite awhile since I played Sonic Adventure, but wouldn't that barrier they're referring to be that door to the Emerald Shrine area?
It could be, but if we go by the quote above: It's common enough knowledge that she goes to the altar regularly, as opposed to going somewhere else and spending time. I'm assuming the Echidnas must see her physically near the altar after passing through the doorway, unless she's just telling them casually that she's going through the door that no one else can go through. There are basic logic issues either way if we think it through. Either she's telling people she's spending time at the altar, a place the rest of the tribe wants to go to. Or they're watching her, when she thinks she isn't being watched, passing through a barrier that they can't. Whether it be the door or an invisible, magical barrier. We see Tikal squabble with her father once before the incident, but it's very passive of the Echidnas to let her keep going there without demanding she let them in too. They could realize she's the only one that can enter and are just letting her do it to learn more about the powers there, but the game simply doesn't provide enough information to settle these hypotheticals (to my memory, at least).
The Japananese dialogue in the scene in which Pachacamac orders his troops to go through Tikal and the Chao goes like this: The implication is that he could have invaded the altar before but had been talked out of it by Tikal, which suggests that he had known how to break through the barrier for a while.
Yeah, I think that's what Pengi and me are saying. The game just gives you enough info to give you context, but leaves other things intentionally vague. And the issue is that a lot of the further explanations always have something in the story that contradicts it or doesn't click. If we go by the logic that Pachacamac could breach the altar anytime, then why did he let Tikal talked him out of it if he truly wanted and needed the emeralds? Why was it mentioned that previous attempts had been thwarted then? Or other echidnas were under the impression that no one knew how to get pass the barrier? Would it be more likely that Pachacamac had asked Tikal to reveal the secret and instead she would tell him to stop? With him finally having enough and either uncovering the secret himself through whatever means, or using his warriors to force themselves into the shrine hence the devastation we see? I would say that both options could be likely, but only Sonic Team know the answer. It might be a cool q&a question when they do events or are on the official stream.
I wonder if that quote is clearer in the Japanese version... might have to boot Sonic Adventure up in Japanese and get to that part. Knuckles' trip to the past... must be the Casinopolis one if I'm remembering right. Might have to speak to all the echidna, just to make sure we're mot missing something.
6m39s (turn subtitles on) Tikal warns Chaos: "My father and the others will come here soon. This time, it'll be different...! Take everyone and flee!" The impression I get is that this is the first time Pachacamac ordered a full scale assault on the emerald altar, with previous attempts being on a smaller scale.
^ The way she says it makes it sound to me like she means that this time her father would bring enough men to bring the barrier down. For Pachacamac, accessing the altar might have been less a matter of knowing how to bypass the barrier, and more of using enough force to bruteforce their way in. I'm guessing the guidebook's mention of their previous attempts to steal the emeralds having been thwarted refers to them having unsuccessfully tried to break the barrier in the past. Changing subjects, I don't suppose we ever got any lore or explanation for the Mystic Melody pedestals in SA2? I find it fascinating that the games hints they're connected to Knuckles' ancestors, with Knux commenting that they remind him of their architecture.
This is pure speculation, but, when I played SA1, I was under the impression that Tikal would be some sort of priestess to the tribe, probably as her grandmother was. It wouldn't be weird if she could go regularly to the altar without asking for permission because it was among her sacred duties and privileges. I do agree it was weird the place was in flames when they arrive if Chaos was the only defender of the jewels, but the sacred barrier breaking with an explosion could have put the place in flames, or Chaos lost the first round but went berserk when it saw what was happening.
Unlikely, since they react in horror at the sight of Chaos as they're charging the altar. The barrier could explain the fire, if not the Echidna just lighting the place up to make sure nothing was in the area to stop them. Too bad they forgot about the water... Still, we should look into this barrier, it's interesting that nothing was really brought to the primary attention, all other implication being they just weren't going for them yet...
What I really would like to know is who set up that "sacred barrier". Chaos? The Knuckles Clan's distant ancestors? Whoever built that altar? Most likely the latter, since it feels like it was deliberately placed in a secluded location, but that only leads us to the question of who built it. Going deeper into headcanon territory, perhaps the survivors of the Fourth Great Civilization built the altar and put the barrier after Gizoid decimated them, to seal the Emeralds away and ensure that they would never be used to cause such a cataclysm again. Although the fact the altar seems to be a shrine of sorts (not to mention an altar) suggests it was used as a place of worship. Perhaps they renounced their technological ways and turned to the gods? Would explain why things seemed to be more primitive by the Knuckles Clan's times (well, that and the aforementioned cataclysm).
This has just given me an amusing headcanon that every time, every time, the Great Civilization of the era will abuse the Chaos Emeralds, and once the outcome happens, they build a shrine to house and guard the Chaos Emeralds to try and prevent it happening again before becoming extinct. Pre-Fourth Civilization: The Gaia Temples. Fourth Civilization: The Master Emerald's Altar. Echidna Civiization: The Hidden Palace Zone. Next on the chopping block: Humans.
The emerald altar was aflame because the Knuckles tribe were attacking the place, laying waste to it. It's nothing more complicated than that. It's called a Knuckles tribe pedestal (ナックルズ族の台座 Knuckles-zoku no daiza) in the Japanese guide books. https://pm1.narvii.com/6367/3fc72d1326ad659f6201086c1f8367e739840b21_hq.jpg https://aminoapps.com/c/sonic/page/...guidebook/lXap_70KFQu3YvDvV3Mn0qeWEjD8r4L11KD We still need full scans of these books for the Sonic Retro wiki.
