Sonic Month 2019: Sonic 3

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by drx, Nov 16, 2019.

  1. Turbohog

    Turbohog

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    The world wasn't quite as "connected" back then, so it's possible the Michael Jackson scandal didn't hit Japan as much as it did in the west. Regardless, there have always been multiple explanations regarding the "removal" of Michael Jackson's music. One was the child abuse allegations and the other was that MJ wasn't satisfied with the sounds the Genesis could create. You'd have to look up the source, but that's the explanation that someone who worked with him gave.
     
  2. Rika Chou

    Rika Chou

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    I got the level map for HCZ1, seems to be identical to final from what I can tell: https://i.imgur.com/iSfjCvh.png

    Anyone know if the other levels have layout changes? I could see about getting maps for those.

    Also I've done though most of the Nemesis compressed are, so far nothing interesting.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
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  3. Sz

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    The date the final Sonic 3 supposedly went gold (November 20th, 1993) is far too close to Nov 3 -- given all the obvious fixes and changes that need to be made to the game (ex: the Sonic sprites), I'd argue that not too much stock should be put into that date.

    I like the theory proposed earlier in this thread that this may have been a parallel source tree build for the team working on the 2 player levels. Those seem essentially complete, not just "90%" like the single player levels. (and remember, in software, the last 10% is 90% of the work)
     
  4. Taylor

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    That's an interesting theory, but wouldn't MJ be credited within the game if the dev team was acting under the assumption that it was alright to use his music?
     
  5. Blastfrog

    Blastfrog

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    If Sega would just allow a rerelease with this original music, that'd be a lot nicer. This music works fine, even if it's not what it originally released with. Having 3K in modern and official form at all is better than nothing.

    Besides, it's not like they were unwilling to compromise before. We got an instrumental version of Toot Toot Sonic Warrior, unfortunate as that was.

    And if anyone really wants the real thing, they can patch it in themselves with OGG files.

    It's not a question of what he gains by lying, but a question of what he loses by telling the truth. Let's just assume he got it from this proto but he's not allowed to say.
     
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  6. jubbalub

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    I'm not sure if I prefer these Knuckles sprites to the final or not. They certainly fit better alongside S2 Sonic. I also just dislike Sonic 3's character sprites in general, so I'm biased.
     
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  7. Mecha Sally

    Mecha Sally

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    Missed the stream but looked at a few clips... so crazy to find out that the alternate music from the PC ports actually came from this. Wow.

    Thanks to drx and everyone else who made this possible!
     
  8. Qjimbo

    Qjimbo

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    Ok now I’m seriously blown away by this proto release. This is just insane, particularly the music. Like why did nobody mention that they had tracks made and MJs team came in to replace them? Also if the MJ scandal was serious they could have just rolled back to this music. Incredible.
     
  9. NoNameAtAll

    NoNameAtAll

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    Man, oh man, was that stream a trip. Thanks for the ride, guys. All of this is just simply amazing to me.

    Seeing S2 styled sprites here, all of the insanity with the PC music, the drop dash...this was one of the ages.
     
  10. DreamsComeBlue

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    Yeah, I don't get that. If Sonic 3 went gold on November 20th, did they really just shift focus to the S&K portion and not make any further changes to the first half of the game, all the way up to its Feb. 2 NA release? It seems to me like they would have used that time to make further improvements, up to and including an MJ-less soundtrack.
     
  11. RikohZX

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    The 2P fork sounds like a reasonable theory right now. That or this was a backup build from earlier in dev that just happened to be printed to a playable state not long before release.
     
  12. T.Q.

    T.Q.

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    Perhaps that is where we can look to the claim that MJ didn't like the sound of the music, and felt he should not be credited. So instead of crediting him alone (like what's done with many artists, where the lead gets credited instead of each individual person in the band who made the music), they credited his team.

    I think we have to consider whatever timeline is needed to manufacture the cartridges, packaging, and shipping to retail stores. It may have taken a few months to do. Maybe by the time the dev team received the memo to remove MJ's music, it was too late, and ceasing production of the product would have cost too much money to recall, and reprogram, and would increase the lost opportunity of sales to be picked up.

    Look at Sonic 2. The final build was around September 26/29, 1992. The release date was November 21, 1992. So about two months.

    So with Sonic 3 released around February 4, 1994, and presume 2 months back, the latest would be December 4, 1993. Quite close to this prototype in November 20, 1993.

    Given what we've seen with Sega management rushing their game programmers to release something, it could also be that the dev team forgot to remove the MJ music, and ended up realizing after the retail release that it was too late to change that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
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  13. Rika Chou

    Rika Chou

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    Anyone recognize what this is? Looks familiar but I'm not sure: (mappings and palette may be wrong)

    ($12CC34)
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
  14. SanicDerpy

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    Thanks drx for finding this prototype, really appreciate it!

    I'm in the process of ripping VGMs in this prototype. I'm going to showcase Carnival Night Act 1 as it is the only one I ripped so far. (Gonna upload the rest on vgmrips.net once I'm done). Not only it is the PC version's BGM of CNZ Act 1, it also plays in a different key.

    Had to put it in a zip file, due to this forum not supporting .vgm or .vgz files. Used the aritist info from the final games vgm's. Honestly this sounds much better than the final, should've used this instead as this tune is more of a Sonic level feel along with suiting the zone's theme.
     

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  15. Rlan

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    Any chance of getting a version of the ROM with the hacks in? I would love to do some comparisons of Lava Reef, but I can't within the main ROM.
     
  16. Turbohog

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    Drx said in the hidden palace discord that he would try to release a rom with Lava Reef later on once he cleans up some other stuff he was experimenting with.
     
  17. Strife

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    I look forward to the future when we all start reminiscing about where we were when we found out that the Drop Dash and PC music both originated in early versions of Sonic 3. What a fascinating discovery!

    I can only imagine what it's like to live in the timeline where Sega stuck with its in-house music team and avoided whatever legal issues forced them to stop supporting future releases.
     
  18. DreamsComeBlue

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    In that case I can see them spending about a month and a half doing bug testing and then the remaining weeks printing cartidges and getting instruction booklets and promotional materials ready. But a three month gap seems a little excessive for a game Sonic 3's size. I wish I could cite something offhand here to bolster my stance here, but I know I've read of bugs being fixed in games back in the 8-bit and 16-bit era within a week or so of release. Even for a massive, near-worldwide release (PAL coming just two weeks later), would it really take so long to manufacture the initial run of Sonic 3 carts?
     
  19. SyntaxTsu

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    Well, I can say where I was - At the stream itself. The moment that the AIZ Knuckles cutscene started was a moment of severe surprise.

    The former is an object also unused in the final game. The latter? No idea.