Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by TimmiT, Oct 2, 2013.
Why is this game not 4-player? There are 4 characters! />
Yeah, I guess I did enjoy Unleashed day time a bit. Colors was fine but much too short, but it is a platformer meaning right out of the box we know it's probably less than 20 hours. Generations to me was too bland, the level design in Unleashed had more to it, but most of Unleashed wasn't day time. All I'm trying to say it's tricky to get speed and platforming in one game. Which is why we won't likely see another Generations type game. I remember when Generations came out there was a kiosk where people got to play the game at Best Buy and people complained that he moved too fast; the screen was too "blurry". I met a few people that enjoyed it though.
Lost World also had some camera issues in gameplay before it was released that had me worried, especially with the sky diving sections. Thankfully they fixed it, hope they do this time too.
The only trouble I have with the 3DS version is that it goes back to 2.5D after the previous game finally pulled off 3D in a handheld game. It still looks fine to me so far though.
It's not by the same developer. And if handheld 3D Sonic games would be like Sonic Lost World 3DS, then I'd rather have no handheld 3D Sonic games at all.
Also, about the next Sonic game being something like Sonic Lost World, I wouldn't expect it to be either way. Remember that Sonic Colours and Generations were developed at the same time, I'd expect something similar here seeing how Colours and Lost World also share the same director and with the new PS4/Xbone hardware development probably takes longer than usual.
With regard to Sticks...
Personally in terms of the actual design of Sticks, I am pretty impressed.
First of Sonic's animal comrades (talking about characters from the games) to not wear gloves, which is pretty interesting.
What I also think is cool, is that she also appears to be the first of the animal comrades to have some element of asymmetry in her design which really makes her stand out and feel unique - for example her shoes are each different in design from one another, she has a bracelet on one arm only, and carries a weapon in the hand on the opposite side, her necklace is asymmetrical (in terms of having different sized pendants spread across the front and her skirt is different on the left side to the right side (even a different material).
Seems really cool.
I get people making the comparison to Marine's design in terms of colour scheme and after seeing the trailer her personality has similarities. But her design definitely holds up on its own and for the reasons I have specified above, I think she is actually pretty unique. Really interested in playing as her
I'm aware they're different developers. It's the concept I think that could have been used, not the execution.
Sonic may be in the lead, but based on the footage, they are all running at the same speed. None of the other characters are falling behind or having trouble keeping up. They may be in different positions, but they are all maintaining THE EXACT SAME SPEED. Yeah, thanks for taking away the one thing that made Sonic unique...
I tend to give Heroes a little bit of leeway with this. At least characters only traveled in groups of three, and most of the time it was believable that they were all in the same range of speed. But I'd think, with as much progress as game engines and technology have made, they could make it look like the other characters are realistically having a hard time keeping up with Sonic.
Also, is it just me, or do these enemy drones look more like something you might see in AoStH? Even Burnbot looked a little like that... Thanks for reviving that? Wow, this really is turning into a hipster Sonic.
Snooping as usual.
Speaking of old school cartoons, I see a lot of people saying how this just doesn't feel like a Sonic game. Kind of reminds me of that SatAM game that never got released. I guess too much strategy can lessen a Sonic game...
I guess that just leaves my final question... Is Sonic Boom really made for Western Audiences or are they just trying something new? There is a difference, and honestly, I hate when ANY company does the former. 4Kids thought they needed to "westernize" anime, and look where it got them. Sonic never needed to be westernized before. He seemed to have plenty of appeal and popularity so far. I guess giving him a scarf, sports tape, and a sitcom is going to make all the difference? Makes sense to me! :specialed: I sure am glad this won't affect or replace the main Sonic canon.
I can't seem to help but get a sort of LEGO-series vibe [obviously not by looks] on some aspects of it, if anyone knows what I mean. Might try to explain myself more later...
The thing here is that Sonic and all the other playable characters in the franchise's history always had the same speed. The only games to make a distinction between characters were Knuckles' Chaotix (accelerations only), Sonic R, Sonic Adventure and Sonic Heroes (top speed only, and the distinction is only applied when one of them is the leader). In Sonic Adventure 2, if you hack it in, even a mech-less Dr. Eggman can breeze through City Escape at shockingly blazing speeds. Heck, even in Sonic 2!!
As a matter of fact, yes. It was SEGA's intention to make a game specifically to cater to a western audience, and that is because Takashi Iizuka has absoultely no idea what he is doing. What Bob Rafei is doing, however, is "how I wished Sonic to be" / "I don't know how to possibly make any other kind of platformer game but 'Jak & Daxter' style".
In my oppinion, they should not aim for a distinction: if they do a great game, every audience will like it. Take for example Super Mario 3D World. It wasn't Nintendo's intention to make a game that would cater to a Japanese audience or western audience; they just created a game that is fun. This is what SEGA should be aiming at first and foremost, and that's why I say that Takashi Iizuka has, definitely, abolutely no idea what he is doing. He thinks that Sonic games are performing poorly elsewhere in the world because Sonic doesn't appeal to the western market. That is not the problem; Sonic games are performing poorly because they are terrible games! That's what Iizuka and the rest of the stubborns at SoJ need to understand (but for them, every Sonic game is excellent). Someone need to open their eyes.
I'll reserve judgment on something that has not even come out yet, but I hope that if there are good ideas and execution in these games, SoJ takes notice.
I feel like there is no one in the industry that knows what they're doing with Sonic. We have had many different developers tackle Sonic, from Sonic Team's many incarnations, Traveller's Tales, Dimps, Backbone, BioWare, Sumo Digital, to a bunch of ex-Naughty Dog staff. The problem most of them have is they don't have a fundamental understanding of what makes Sonic work. It's too much of a chore to understand, so they simply make whatever game is within their comfort zone, put Sonic in it and hope it works. They could use a different IP for these games and it wouldn't make a substantial difference.
I couldn't have said it any better myself. You nailed it.
A notice of importance, however, is that Traveller's Tales did Sonic 3D Blast and Sonic R: the former still felt like an actual Sonic game and the latter was what I would expect from a hypothetical 3D platforming Sonic game. Dimps did Sonic Pocket Adventure and Sonic Advance, two games which should go without saying. The problem arrises when you consider the company as a whole: Dimps did Sonic Advance... but Dimps also did Sonic 4. They are not the same Dimps; their employee changed, the team responsible for these games changed, etc. Even Sonic Team is not the same team anymore. That is why I blame names for the success or failure of games, and not the companies themselves.
Of course there are exceptions. To be fair on Sumo Digital, OutRun does make a decent template to work with when making a Sega/Sonic-themed racing game. Those games seem to be well-received anyway. And yeah, I'd say early Dimps were to last developers to get Sonic truly right, save for Taxman and Stealth's efforts with the Retro Engine.
Well, they are one of us! Would you expect anything less from them? :v: Just a shame that the higher ups at SoJ don't understand this either, though.
Take out any developers who have only worked on spin-offs, and you're left with Dimps, Big Red Button and Sanzaru Games. Dimps has shown that they do understand what makes Sonic work with Sonic Pocket Adventure and Sonic Advance, but have since not really tried to do it like the classic games. And that was OK, because Sonic Advance 2 and 3, the Rush games and Colours DS were at least solid games. Their problem is more that the overal quality of their Sonic games went down, possibly from just having to rush them out. Anyway, their games aren't really Sonic in name alone, as they do still incorporate elements from Sonic. (Mainly being fast)
Big Red Button and Sanzaru haven't really had the chance to show that they understand what makes Sonic work, as they haven't released a Sonic game yet. They have made it clear that they're not really trying to make something like previous Sonic games with Sonic Boom though. Rise of Lyric still seems to incorporate enough elements from what Sonic characters can do (Sonic is fast, Tails can fly, Knuckles can dig and climb stuff and Amy does stuff with her hammer), so I wouldn't say that Rise of Lyric can really be replaced with a different IP without the Sonic elements being noticeable. They definitely stay within their comfort zone though, as it also looks very similar to PS2 platformers. The designs of some of the new characters especially look like something out of a Jak & Daxter or Ratchet & Clank game.
Sanzaru Games doesn't really seem to try to incorporate that much Sonic stuff in Shattered Crystal aside from the rival races and the behind the back levels though. At least from what we've seen of the game so far. It kinda seems like a regular platformer with Metroidvania-style levels.
I can't remember if I posted this here somewhere but,
in the 1980s, Doctor Who, which had been airing for twenty years or more by then, was getting messed around by bad writing and direction, because people couldn't understand whether it was meant to be a children's show, a family sci-fi adventure, serious drama, or camp stupidity dealing with tight budgets (case in point: the Daleks are mutated creatures that kill things, but they also have plungers and silly voice). It was axed, sat around for fifteen years, and the BBC moved onto different things.
But during that decade and a half, the people who had watched Doctor Who as children, were working their way up the chain of command, and by the time 2005 rolled around, the people in charge of the "new" Doctor Who were now life-long fans of the old show. Something that wasn't statistically possible in the mid-80s.
The moral of the story is to take a break when you're tired so you don't mess things up. Sonic is very tired. Unfortunately one half of this community has a radically different take on this so there's never a consensus.
And I mean these games look terrible. I'm always sceptical of a company that decides one day they're going to make a "franchsie", and get on to licensing out the rights to multiple games, toys and a TV show before any of this has been tested. It lacks the heart and soul of say, Angry Birds, which got to this stage by having a good game and working hard. If there's anything positive out of this, it'll be that it's easy to retcon - it's far more difficult for them to drag steriod Knuckles into future games than it is, say, Shadow or Silver*.
*although don't hold your breath, seeing as one died and the other came from the future in an event that was forgotten by all characters involved.
Considering that Angry Birds is a rip-off of a flash game, not the best example you could pick. :v:
But as for the point you're actually trying to make: I don't think this is really necessary with Sonic right now, at least when it comes to the quality of the games. Sonic Team's Sonic games are mostly at least solid since Sonic Unleashed. The creators know what they want Sonic games to be. If anything, Sonic Boom shows that because they make the games that are so different from the current norm a spin-off series with a different name, clearly separating it from the normal Sonic franchise. The problem right now is more that there are a lot of people on the internet with a "why the fuck should I care about Sonic the Hedgehog" mentality after the many bad games. This is slowly changing with each new Sonic game release though.
Hey, I wouldn't blame anyone at Dimps for Sonic 4, they only codeveloped it. Dimps proved they can still make good games like making the engine for Street Fighter 4 and DBZ Burst Limit. I wouldn't blame the developers if they made a bad Sonic game either way. In the classic games Sonic actually moved slower than Mario believe it or not, it was just the camera and level design that made it look like he was going fast. Ever since then people wanted him to go even faster in 3D, and here's the thing: Sonic is a platformer that one of it's selling points became to speed through everything. It almost contradicts itself, so I don't blame the developers not making a good game out of such an odd concept in such a divided fanbase. Everyone has opinions, and that's perfectly fine and respectable, but in the Sonic fanbase a lot of people almost pick tribes out of what they like. Whatever the devs do they can't satisfy the majority; one person's dream game could be another's worst case scenario. It's a tricky concept to work with in a tricky fanbase. I do agree though with the fact they shouldn't worry about making a western game rather than a good game. It's been a trend in Sonic games to punish you in some way for having fun (eg. Playing the same level four times in Heroes), which is something they should worry about more. A great game should appeal to both audiences. It's not like feeding people vs animals. This is video game devlopment, not worrying about feeding chocolate to dogs.
- Sidenote: Endri, you need to see this, it's been blowing up multiple Sonic news sites.
That may have been the case in Sonic 1 when there was a speed cap, but Sonic 2 and 3? I don't know, I'm under the impression the removal of the speed cap meant there was no limit to Sonic's speed. His speed seemed to be limited to what the level geometry would allow, at least when rolling.
Me thinks the whole "super sonic speed" was a marketing thing created in the western continent! We know that Sonic has the wheel-whatever running animation, but... And Sonic is not that fast (naturally), indeed; the feel of speed comes from the slopes, physics and camera. And because of that and the whole marketing thing, Sonic is stuck in the paradigm of being fast fast fast.
As for Mario being faster than Sonic... no? Tech info time!:
In Super Mario World, the fastest speed Mario can ever reach is 0.203125 (0x52) pixels per frame, and that is using the Hopping Glitch, and, normally, his fastest speed is 0.19140625 (0x49) pixels per frame—it oscillates between 0.18359375 (0x47), 0.1875 (0x48) and 0.19140625 (0x49) pixels per frame. Mario's speed is a single byte! From Sonic 1 to Knuckles' Chaotix, Sonic's speed is measured in 2 bytes, and his regular top speed is already greater than any Mario game: 6 pixels per frame (0x0600)! He is even faster than Mario from 64 to Galaxy 2, whose top speed is, in floating-point, <= than 32.0 (it is subtracted by 1.0 every time it is greater than 32.0), while Sonic (in the same world with the same scale) would be 192.0*! That's said, Mario was never faster than Sonic. I should know this; I'm a tech member, after all!
*192.0 in Super Mario 64, Sunshine, Galaxy and Galaxy 2 equals to a vector length of 0.375 of a unity in 3D world space).
Oh my god, how was that turned into a discussion? There's nothing to discuss from that piece of information alone.
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