Original Sonic 1 proto lost, meant for inclusion in SMC

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by MathUser, Jun 27, 2011.

  1. Tanks

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    <!--quoteo(post=600731:date=Jun 29 2011, 09:47 AM:name=Krigo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krigo @ Jun 29 2011, 09:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=600731">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Keep in mind, the GC's Minidisc is limited to 1.8GB. However I thought the problem with Sonic CD was SEGA's inability to emulate it, which is why the PC version was ported instead for Gems.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The data in the final build is 975 MB (~.95 GB), a lot of it being useless testing stuff, but even then they could have easily implemented the PC version had they had the time.
     
  2. David The Lurker

    David The Lurker

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    A few thoughts on everything in this thread.

    I know the general consensus here is "grr horders are bad." And yes, anyone who sits there with rare materials that other people at least want to know exist and refuse to share that knowledge? They're being stupid. But this sort of mentality has existed for hundreds if not thousands if years. Untold pieces of art and architecture are still hiding in monasteries in Europe that only the most devout are allowed to look. History that should be public and documented instead left to be hidden. For many, knowledge is power. Why do you think that, at one point, translating the Bible into contemporary languages was a crime punishable by death? Yes, no one is going to die over a Sonic beta, but there is precedent, no matter how annoying and infuriating.

    Second, about the doubt of the Sonic 1 Beta being in SMC. Like most people, I feel like that if it was to be in there as Naka stated, that it was only there on the drawing board and never implemented because they couldn't find it. You wouldn't program in a listing of a game you can't find. I don't know how long they may tried to look for it, but it is possible that Sega has lost it. It is also possible that they do have it but have no idea where it is. But for anyone saying "why didn't they put in the Sonic 2 Beta?!" ...yeah. About that. This Sonic 1 Beta was designed to be standalone, as far as can be told. Something historically important as well when it comes to the evolution of Sonic. The most interesting things about the Sonic 2 beta were the incomplete parts, or those that weren't part of the playable levels when you press start. Throwing that rom into a professional compilation without any alterations seems implausible. They'd have to modify it, and I don't think Sega wanted to put that much effort into it. Did they even have the beta to Sonic 2 at their fingertips? Yes, we had it for years. But wasn't there an interview with Naka about the beta, and he was a bit surprised that anyone had it? That was after the Mega Collection came out, I think.

    Also, if I had a choice between that plush and the Sonic 1 Beta, I would take the beta everytime. That first beta is the most primordial version of Sonic. The only way you can get further back is by looking at the concept art. That would, arguably, be way more important that any of the betas we've gotten thus far.

    One more random thought which is really just about Eggman. I love bumblebee Eggman. Even though he is just one of many enemies in that concept art, remember he was one if a handful of designs considered to be the star if the game. If they hadn't changed directions, I would like to think Eggman wouldn't have been a forgettable enemy. The team loved him too much. Why do you think he became the villain? The most awesome game villain ever.
     
  3. Covarr

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    <!--quoteo(post=600762:date=Jun 29 2011, 11:21 AM:name=David The Lurker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (David The Lurker @ Jun 29 2011, 11:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=600762">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do you think that, at one point, translating the Bible into contemporary languages was a crime punishable by death?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I don't know how this misconception continues to make the rounds. In 1408, the church declared it illegal to make an unauthorized translation, as a result of a horribly (and quite possibly deliberately) mangled translation by John Wycliff. William Tyndale was later punished for translating the Bible to English without authorization, which was not granted to him for a number of (admittedly not very good) reasons. There already existed a number of translations, which the church was fine with.

    Back on topic: I can't believe anybody seriously thinks Naka is making this up. It's possible he's misremembering details, but there's gotta be at least a grain of truth to what he's saying. He doesn't really have any reason to lie about this.
     
  4. Scarred Sun

    Scarred Sun

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    Last I checked, no one said that Naka was making anything up—it's a "how do you interpret this" situation. Let's not get hyperbolic.
     
  5. SonicGenesis89

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    That is the very first Sonic Plushie, in Japan while promoting Sonic 1 they had the UFO Catchers for Sonic, Eggman and animal friends. So those are the originals I bet they are worth a lot. I wish I could have one especially the Eggman since there is barely any good Eggman Plushie's out there. I want a Classic styled one.

    [​IMG]

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  6. Black Squirrel

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    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[​IMG]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    undocumented prototype special stage screenshot
     
  7. Elratauru

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    Man, these mag. scans are awesome. Cant really read them (damn kanjis :P) but look at that pic of that Sonic plush along Anpanman :P Isnt that awesome? Gotta love catchers.

    Aside that, and in-proto talk, I'd totally be amazed if someone did a Proto hack proof of concept for any of the rom contests, and recreated all these sprites from these images :P
     
  8. nineko

    nineko

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    <!--quoteo(post=601612:date=Jul 2 2011, 02:02 PM:name=Elratauru)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Elratauru @ Jul 2 2011, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=601612">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd totally be amazed if someone did a Proto hack proof of concept<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_1_Beta_Remake" target="_blank" style="background: url(http://info.sonicretro.org/images/5/50/Reticon.png) right no-repeat; padding-right: 20px; border-bottom: 1px dotted #3366BB; color: #3366BB; cursor:pointer; text-decoration:none;" class="wiki">Sonic_1_Beta_Remake</a>
    This?
     
  9. Sik

    Sik

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    <!--quoteo(post=601609:date=Jul 2 2011, 08:38 AM:name=Black Squirrel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Black Squirrel @ Jul 2 2011, 08:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=601609">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->undocumented prototype special stage screenshot<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm pretty sure I've seen this screenshot mentioned ages ago already. There isn't anything new about it =/
     
  10. ICEknight

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    <!--quoteo(post=601581:date=Jul 2 2011, 02:15 AM:name=SonicGenesis89)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SonicGenesis89 @ Jul 2 2011, 02:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=601581">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is the very first Sonic Plushie, in Japan while promoting Sonic 1 they had the UFO Catchers for Sonic, Eggman and animal friends. So those are the originals I bet they are worth a lot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It's not, the one accompanying the SEGA-CD is a second version of that one. Its tag has a "1991, 1992" copyright, and the side spikes look a bit less spread.

    Also, the eye sticker in the first edition seems to be of of much less quality.
     
  11. Elratauru

    Elratauru

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    <!--quoteo(post=601613:date=Jul 2 2011, 09:12 AM:name=nineko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nineko @ Jul 2 2011, 09:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=601613">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=601612:date=Jul 2 2011, 02:02 PM:name=Elratauru)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Elratauru @ Jul 2 2011, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=601612">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd totally be amazed if someone did a Proto hack proof of concept<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_1_Beta_Remake" target="_blank" style="background: url(http://info.sonicretro.org/images/5/50/Reticon.png) right no-repeat; padding-right: 20px; border-bottom: 1px dotted #3366BB; color: #3366BB; cursor:pointer; text-decoration:none;" class="wiki">Sonic_1_Beta_Remake</a>
    This?
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Nah, I meant a direct copy of the pictures with the mountains and shit. Kinda like trying to "imitate" the real lost proto. I'd be fun to redraw these things in sprites and see them in "action" even if we don't really know how much of that GHZ was finished in that proto.

    Aside that, about the layers-thing, I believe that the 7 layers thing may be true (even if used at the same time), look at the rocks in the foreground in the GHZ pictures...they may have developed paralax scrolling layers only to realize that It'd be too much to do it in all the stages later. Its only speculation of course. Or these may just have been fixed, but that would look kinda meh :P

    Edit;typo stuff.
     
  12. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    Or they used sprites for the nearby rocks and palmtrees, making more fake parallax layers. They ended up doing that in Star Light Zone, after all.

    EDIT: And Angel Island, to an extent.
     
  13. Black Squirrel

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    <!--quoteo(post=601617:date=Jul 2 2011, 08:50 AM:name=Sik)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sik @ Jul 2 2011, 08:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=601617">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=601609:date=Jul 2 2011, 08:38 AM:name=Black Squirrel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Black Squirrel @ Jul 2 2011, 08:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=601609">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->undocumented prototype special stage screenshot<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm pretty sure I've seen this screenshot mentioned ages ago already. There isn't anything new about it =/
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well it wasn't on the wiki, and is very different to the other shots we have.

    That shouldn't really be the case if it's common knowledge.
     
  14. SonicGenesis89

    SonicGenesis89

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    Another UFO Catcher picture found in my many messy folders.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Diablohead

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    sonic 1 has always had the most charm in everything related to it.
     
  16. Orengefox

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    <!--quoteo(post=599897:date=Jun 27 2011, 12:44 PM:name=MathUser)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MathUser @ Jun 27 2011, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=599897">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Interview archived here: <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/Yuji Naka interview by Games Radar (June 27, 2011)" target="_blank" style="background: url(http://info.sonicretro.org/images/5/50/Reticon.png) right no-repeat; padding-right: 20px; border-bottom: 1px dotted #3366BB; color: #3366BB; cursor:pointer; text-decoration:none;" class="wiki">Yuji Naka interview by Games Radar (June 27, 2011)</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    My initial <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzqLHiCNr0Q#t=1m02s" target="_blank">reaction</a> when I read that article. I still can't believe there's a genuine copy of the first build out there somewhere. Is there anything else SEGA's got hidden away? =P

    I was reading a recent article on Retro Gamer Issue 91 which features "20 Years of Sonic" and there's bit in the article which got my attention. Under Developer Quotes, this was written...

    <!--QuoteBegin-Philip Oliver+ CEO & co-founder of Blitz Games Studios--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Philip Oliver @ CEO & co-founder of Blitz Games Studios)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I remember seeing Sonic at an early trade show in the US. It was January 1991 at CES Las Vegas. It was a single level and fairly low profile on Sega's booth - just one or two discreet screens. The Genesis had been launched in the US six months before. Six months later at the summer CES in Chicago, Sega went into overdrive promoting Sonic. It stole the show. Back when all videosgames were slow, so this was revolutionary and eye-cathching! Sega set to use Sonic to demonstrate the speed of their new console, and they pulled it off fantastically!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Now according this <a href="http://insertcredit.com/2011/06/23/a-super-early-look-at-the-original-sonic-the-hedgehog/" target="_blank">Insert Credit</a> (which has been mentioned a couple times already), Sonic 1 was developed for 14 months. When shown at the Tokyo Toy Show, June 7, 1990 (the very one that Yuji Naka might have been on about), it was roughly two months into it's development. Judging from what Philip Oliver described, the build shown at CES Las Vegas January 1991 may have still been in it's early stages to half ways through it's development. When drx posted some footage of the game awhile back in this <a href="http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=17414" target="_blank">topic</a>, he mention that footage was taken on March 7th, 1991. The build shown in the footage may have been two months early or older as the final build to Sonic 1 was on May 1st 1991.

    Interesting stuff that's for sure.
     
  17. XCubed

    XCubed

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    After reading through this entire topic, I'm shocked that no one mentioned the Wayne's World version. There's no way it was the same "missing cart."
     
  18. Ollie

    Ollie

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    I've been quickly restoring the Sonic 1 "Alpha" image, I know it's not much but I've cropped the image to 320x224 and restored some of the colour. I'm sure it's not exactly accurate but heck, at least it makes the image look a bit more clearer for all those wanting to convert the image into a hack/fan game. I'm sure someone who was more skilled than me could do a better job of restoring it.

    [​IMG]

    <!--quoteo(post=601609:date=Jul 2 2011, 12:38 PM:name=Black Squirrel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Black Squirrel @ Jul 2 2011, 12:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=601609">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I spy with my little eye something beginning with
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[​IMG]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    undocumented prototype special stage screenshot
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It looks to me like it's a screenshot of using Debug mode out of the Special stages.
     
  19. KusanagiShiro

    KusanagiShiro

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    <!--quoteo(post=600723:date=Jun 29 2011, 04:08 PM:name=Zakalaks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zakalaks @ Jun 29 2011, 04:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=600723">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry if someone has posted this before, but you should be able to find most of the existing prototype screenshots for Sonic 1 right here:
    <a href="http://sost.emulationzone.org/sonic_1/index.htm" target="_blank">Click here</a>
    Once again apologies if this has been posted already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That link triggers my antivirus... >.>
     
  20. LOst

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    <!--quoteo(post=599909:date=Jun 27 2011, 10:15 PM:name=Chimpo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chimpo @ Jun 27 2011, 10:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=599909">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->7 layers of scrolling? God damn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Green Hill Zone from Version 1 has 5 layers, where one is scanline scrolling. Green Hill Zone from Version 2 also has some extra for the moving clouds. But this is not interesting! What is interesting is what the sprites attribute flags (SST-$4) has for the setup of layers! I have always wondered why the setup includes layers that were never used! Ususally you setup the object to map sprites to screen space (titlescreen Sonic), or to scroll space (Motobug), where scroll space is the normal layer in a level. But there are more layers (don't remember how many, but I think it is 2 more) but I can't check it up because the computer I am at is limited to the resources I need to do such a check. And they are all mapped to virtual cameras that I couldn't find being used anywhere in Sonic 1. Of course, these setups are scrapped in Sonic 2, and Sonic 3 uses one of the flags for multi-sprite coordinates setup (to draw the bridge using just one object instead of many objects, saving SST slots in the object heap pool).

    The biggest problem is using fake layers by sprites is the Genesis sprite limit per scanline.

    I think Green Hill Zone's custom scroll as well as Starlight Zone's custom scroll, as well as both levels including support for loops (as no other level do in Sonic 1), are indicating they were the first levels that were worked on by Naka.

    Also, gotta love that welcome sign screenshot's cloud! It is close or the same as one of the Special Stage clouds, and I just love that cotton candy backlit dreamy cloud style that was unique to Sonic 1. Anything in Sonic 1 as part of the design is very important to me in its original pixelness and palette, and I hope we can someday find a prototype!