How would you remake Sonic Adventure for today?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Sonic5993, Nov 27, 2020.

  1. hiadlzupfer

    hiadlzupfer

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    Because I think the base Sonic gameplay from SA1 is great and that a new 3D game should be built apon that!
     
  2. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    I think in terms of a proper flexible project, then yeah a new game inspired by SA1 is maybe the better investment.

    If we're keeping to a remake idea however I think cases like SM64 DS show you can fine tune and expand a game while still keeping most of the original experience in there.

    Polished controls, bigger levels, more missions/minigames/modes, better graphics. Even assigning certain elements of the game to different characters or changing them up according to how they play. It allows a lot of flexibility with fine tuning the game without it feeling too much like 'it may as well not even be the same game remade anymore'. You're still playing Bomb-omb Battlefield and can complete it the same way as before, just now there's new locations, new character gameplay styles and new missions to try as well.

    Of course some fundamental flaws and loose ends still have to stay to maintain the original core, but all in all you could make a pretty good take on SA1 within that constraint.
     
  3. Hanging Waters

    Hanging Waters

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    Tbh I also think the game should be remade rather than just being upscaled ports. And I mean the Mario 64 kind of remake, not completely redesigned.

    Adventure gameplay was - and still is - extremely fun (I’m doing a playthrough as we speak). But I think if they want to make it more accessible to newer players today, they need to really tighten up all those loose screws. I guess the criteria for a remake is not exactly clear, but I think recreating the game in HD and updating the controls + physics to actually... yknow, WORK.. would by itself be enough to call it a remake.

    And then I think some bonus content is a given, especially considering one of 3D All Stars’ (despite just being some ports) biggest issues with critics was not having anything else to do besides the base games. Plus I’m pretty sure a lot of the gameplay changes we’ve talked about in this thread would solidify the remake status.

    I definitely agree that fixing the various atrocities throughout Sonic’s story should be ground zero, but Sonic’s gameplay was arguably the most fleshed out to begin with. That’s why I think characters like Big should get the biggest overhauls. But obviously if Sonic is still flying off of loops in 2020 there’s no point to that, lol.
     
  4. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    Yeah, I think Sonic's in terms of core gameplay and campaign is actually decently fleshed out. It's mostly loose screws here and there you have to fix with him fundamentally. Like he has a decent number of fleshed out levels, but some like Sky Deck REALLY need bug fixes.

    You could add some extras to him like hiding some SA2 upgrades (eg. the instant Light Speed Dash) and maybe giving him a couple new levels (having a flooded Station Square level I think would be ideal to pad between the very slow long build up in the final story for example). But I think in terms of core gameplay, Sonic's is the most complete and polished already. They were clever enough to prioritise him first.

    The others feel way more undercooked, their levels are either too basic or their campaigns are just laughably short. Amy has levels almost as well developed as Sonic's for example but there's THREE of them. There also tends to be far more fundamental gameplay flaws with them than Sonic, like Big and Amy just being way too slow (being normal platformer speed is fine, but they're bad even compared to THAT).

    A lot of that however, I still think can be implemented more in terms of 'expansion around core' instead of 'changing altogether'. Like have more unlockable moves that upgrade the character's moveset, like a body slam attack for Big or running shoes for Amy. They can keep their levels just expand them and have a larger number. I don't really mind Big's fishing stages for example, but there should be SOME platforming beforehand. Add a small chill platforming section that leads to a better programmed fishing segment and that would be okay really. Still weird but a potentially fun compromise that is still true to Big's original design and maybe even further complements his concept as the 'chill out' campaign.

    Generally I think the Adventure Field gameplay could also make a world of difference in how these characters play their whole campaign, and I think they would need to be tweaked the most significantly, but even then they don't have to be altered altogether, just expanded to make better use of their abilities. Have more missions and secrets for each of them to find. Imagine Sonic being able to run up buildings and jump across roofs, or Knuckles being to climb around on them. I think this lack of interaction is what makes the whole Adventure gameplay feel more like a glorified cutscene for all of them.

    I think the biggest core changes needed would be, besides fine tuning the engine, being to make certain levels a bit longer like Big and Gamma's (though even then just by lengthening the original layout), upgrading boss AI a little, and the aforementioned suggestion of making some bosses and minigames play differently according to each character's abilities (though even then with the likely outcome that at least ONE of them plays as the original did). As you can see, most of these still tend to have the ability to play what was originally there, just with more added to it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2020
  5. I really dig the concept of a Flooded Station Square. In a theoretical remake, I could see potential in there being Flooded action stages for at least Sonic and Big. The Adventure Field ought to be flooded during those missions as well, and possibly blocking entrances to other stages until completing the Action stages.
     
  6. E-122-Psi

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    I think adding more levels where they ease into the narrative and pad between cutscenes would be a good idea. Sometimes you're just walking from cutscene to cutscene, and having more actual gameplay would make the experience more fluid. For some examples:

    Angel Island (possibly already planned looking at beta level names):
    * Serves as Knuckles' opening stage before heading to Station Square.
    * Potential Gamma mission where he is sent to release Chaos from the ME as his end level target?
    * Possibly Sonic entering it while searching Angel Island in the final story I guess?

    Sand Hill (possibly planned to given there's a 'desert' name data):
    * Expands Sonic and Tails' minigame into a full blown level.

    Launch Base:
    * Two potential segments, one being the Final Egg launch site in the forest. Big could obliviously wander it as his first stage, being his home turf, while Knuckles could enter it too as he sneaks into the Egg Carrier.
    * The other being a crash site later in the game, heading from the original Final Egg site into the sea following the Egg Carrier's debris. Amy and Gamma could take this route (this would also give more fluidity and reason for Amy entering the Final Egg in the first place).

    The aforementioned idea of a Crisis City esque flooded Station Square transitioned between Perfect Chaos' cutscene and Sonic meeting Tikal. Because that whole slog of cutscenes NEEDS some action between it.

    That's four potential new levels to add on that would still perfectly seam with the original story (and two of which were potentially planned in the first place).
     
  7. ChaddyFantome

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    Playable Flooded Station Square is an absolutely brilliant idea! I'm taking a page out of Sonic 06 of all games, but having gameplay sections where you play as all the characters to collect the Chaos Emeralds before the Super Sonic fight would be a very good enhancement to the Last Story. I wholeheartedly approve!
     
  8. Agreed! I was even thinking for the Big in Flooded Station Square stage, his goal would naturally be to fish up Froggy with one or more swallowed Chaos Emeralds. To expand on the concept a little more, Amy and Gamma's stages could revolve around them both beating down eggrobos so that Froggy could fish unobstructed.
     
  9. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    The catch there is that you couldn't really have a Gamma section for obvious reasons.
     
  10. Yeah... I was thinking what play styles would best match the scenario and somehow overlooked that Gamma would be scrap metal by that point.
     
  11. ChaddyFantome

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    Unless you want a section where you play as a pink Flicky. That'd be funny.
    ;)
     
  12. Hey, flicky was a great game :(
     
  13. How would I make a Sonic Adventure remake?

    Ignoring "I dont know if I would" answer that immediately comes to mind. Starting with the characters.

    Sonic - I think dropping the boost gameplay and trying to bring back more momentum based gameplay is the way to go, Giving back players more control of Sonic I feel is the way forward. You could probably even do this as a "gearing" system where Sonic clearly goes faster the longer you are holding up on the analogue stick. You'd even have some visual differences where Sonic reaches his "top speed" it looks like he is boosting.
    In terms of moves.
    X/A - Jump - Homing Attack (Tap),
    Square/X - "Ducking" button - Spin Attack (tap when moving), Spin Dash (hold), Bounce Attack (Tap in air), Slam (hold in air)
    Circle/B - Light Ring Dash (get the feeling that this could even get dropped tbh)

    Tails - probably needs a big overhaul in terms of level objectives. I feel like Tails needs to "help" Sonic (Kinda like in Sonic 06 amigo segments but y'know not in the middle of the stage) So maybe Tails would have an objective that assists Sonic in terms of storyline but actually is a way for Tails to fly about the place rather than "race" Sonic and Spoiler.
    X/A - Jump and Fly of course
    Square/X - Again ducking button, So spin attack, spin dash and slam.
    Circle/B - Tail attack. you'd be able to tap it and maybe after a while Tails would get a dizzy state that leaves him vunerable
    Triangle/Y - Bomb attack. Because Sega really wants to push this for some reason.

    Knuckles - Knuckles was pretty good in Adventure 1 and 2. So wouldn't see the need for massive changes really. Just needs more levels. Maybe even a sort of "bit before emerald location" and a "bit after emerald location".
    X/A - Jump, Glide.
    Square/X - Punch combo, Spin Attack when running, Maybe even homing attack in mid air. (Wouldn't bring back Max Heat Attack tbh.)
    Circle/B - Dig. Drill Dive.
    Triangle/Y - Sunglasses. Yes.
    L2 or R2/LTrigger or RTrigger - "Stick to wall" So while I wouldn't want to change how Knuckles wall climbs overall but this would give people the option to have Knuckles always hold on to the walls (like a Gears of Wars character) this might be able to get some people scale walls faster as they would be able to "leap" up the walls with the jump button.

    Amy - Amy needs a lot of work. The idea is that shes hiding from Zero, outrunning him still but the levels are more focused around hiding, problem solving while dodging Zero and other badniks. Because the other badniks can alert Zero to Amy's location.
    X/A - Jump
    Square/X - Hammer attack. Hold and Analogue stick to spin around.
    Circle/B - Ducking button again. Duck (tap), Crawl (hold), Dive (while running), Slam (air)
    Triangle/Y - Interact with objects (Like when you can hide in barrels in Final Egg)

    Gamma - With the amount shooting games out there you could probably turn Gamma into a basic 3rd person shooter. Using both Analogue sticks. Also - drop the time limit.
    X/A - Jump, Hover
    Square/X - Target
    Circle/B - Punch/Close Range Attack
    Triangle/Y - Interact/Grab

    Big - Christ. Hot take time - Fishing isn't fun. Its never been fun in any video game including Sega Bass Fishing. I dont know what you would do with Big that isn't fishing however. Used to think have him go around and taking photos would have been cool. I dont want to just turn him into Mario however. Not sure really. Can you drop him? Feels like the lazy man's way out with that one.

    As for levels I think in general the levels just need to be larger and more emphasis on trying to do stunts and exploration. The only level I would say needs a complete think over is Casinopolis. Without going into too much depth. I think the levels in general need refinement.

    I would add an Epilogue where you would play as Rouge and she is going into post Perfect Chaos event levels ie: a lot of water and exploration focused. Her story is that she is looking for evidence of what actually happened between Sonic, Eggman and Chaos. This would then tie in with Sonic Adventure 2's intro where Sonic is in the helicopter. GUN weren't just after Sonic because they got him mixed up with Shadow, GUN just wanted a reason to get Sonic.

    Bosses. I would add a few more in there. Especially for Knuckles and Gamma. And Chaos 4 to be changed for each character that faces it.

    Might add a bit more to this later but probably not.
     
  14. David The Lurker

    David The Lurker

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    I feel like this is the mantra that any Sonic Adventure remake would have to follow. I know the topic is called "how would you remake Sonic Adventure," emphasizing one's personal tastes. But a remake would have to appeal to a wider audience, right? Any actual remake would not be just for you...I mean, unless you had it made very secretly just for yourself. Then it would be.

    So when it comes to remakes, there seems to be two schools of thought. You've got your Resident Evil 2's, and your Crash Bandicoot Trilogy's. One is focused on a single game, sometimes radically reimagining what it could be, re-presenting it as a AAA title because that's what it was, and by golly, it has to be that way again. The other is faithfully recreating the entire game with a brand new coat of paint - it isn't looking to be radically different. When it comes to Sonic Adventure...well, I don't know if either approach would be the best. What makes the game special is the moment in time it was made. A brand new Sonic, on a brand new console, ready to show off tech that would blow our minds. And for many, it did. It was a commercial and critical success, even if subsequent rereleases and retrospectives have focused on the cracks that might have always been there, but were easy to miss in 1999.

    If there were to be a new 3D Sonic game that would once again blow our minds, I wouldn't want that to be in a remake. The budget for that should be allocated to a brand new game, with time and energy spent figuring out how to actually do that. Sonic Adventure reinvented Sonic once. It doesn't need to again.

    However, any remake of Sonic Adventure should still contain some degree of "wow, this is cool!" that came with the original release. Tickling those strings of nostalgia to make us feel like it is 1999, and to show people late to the party why it was important. Doing it exactly 1:1 might not accomplish that goal. But any changes would need to feel like they belong. That they are natural extensions of this wild and wonderful dream Sonic Team came up with. Sonic Adventure was an incredibly ambitious game, and any remake would need to stay faithful to that. Yes, that means Big the Cat would need to fish for Froggy.

    I get that Big's gameplay isn't the best. But he is an important part of the story. Heck, everyone in the game is an important part of the story. They all show different sides of Sonic's universe. We get to see Sonic and Tails in action, we learn more about Knuckles and his ancestry. We're able to peer behind the curtain and experience Eggman's life through E-102. Amy? She wants to prove herself and be part of Sonic's world. Big is the everyman, in some ways our point of view character. Different slices that any player can relate to. If you remove one, the puzzle is incomplete. I agree with those who suggest Big could have more platforming - I would not be against that. One of the things that always confused me was his version of Ice Cap. You have a level that has a bit of exploring, different places to go and fish. Yet, Froggy is right where you start. There's no need to go anywhere else. To a lesser extent, this includes that secret area you can fish at in Emerald Coast. I'd want Big to do a bit of jumping around and casual strolling before we reach Froggy.

    The structure of the game doesn't need to be changed. Six playable characters, adventure fields, action stages, mini games. It all stays. But you can fiddle with what is there. Add a bit more to explore in a level, a new path, a reworked area from the original. Heck, you could even give each character a new level outright. We know there were ideas, and things can certainly be built on what exists. Let someone run through a desert level instead of just sliding down! Let us see a bit more of Angel Island, because it's just so dang cool. I wouldn't be against Tails getting a new level where his objective isn't racing against someone, but it would seem wrong to just go "let's remove the races completely." Tails is going on a journey of self-discovery, realizing he doesn't have to define himself by Sonic, and his gameplay touches on that! Instead of blindly following your hedgehog hero, you seek your own way, reach new heights, and even end up one step ahead, until finally you face against Eggman for the first time all on your own.

    Of course, like some people have mentioned in this thread, it feels like any Adventure remake would need to include Sonic Adventure 2. A package deal would be more attractive to a consumer than selling them separately. I'm sure there's room to argue for a Heroes remake, go along the Crash/Spyro route of having a trilogy of games, but I'm not sure if it would be needed. Really, it's about making sure the best possible version of Adventure 1 (and 2) can be presented. With updated graphics and some hidden surprises. Maybe a mission mode that's...um...better. And of course, a fully linked Chao Garden.

    Now, there are a couple things I would personally like to see. One being an "original" mode that makes everything look as it did on the Dreamcast, with unaltered levels. Some sort of museum, with concept art and commercials and the unveiling video of Adventure. The pipe dream? A Saturn version of Adventure. Make it simple, have only Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles playable, only do a handful of levels. And if we really want to push it...I wouldn't mind a tiny campaign that takes place between SA1 and 2, linking the games just a bit more. Realistically, the museum would probably be the only thing SEGA would muster, if that. But this is the paragraph where I indulge in the "how would YOU remake Sonic Adventure" idea.

    Really, what makes sense to me is finding that sweet spot between what Crash/Spyro did, and what Resident Evil 2 did. Updating things visually, but not completely overhauling the gameplay. Sprinkle in some new challenges, but keep the core of what makes the game unique in the video game landscape.
     
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  15. I've been doing a lot soul searching and thinking about this idea for a while now, but I feel one important question that should be asked when tackling this game before any ideas are even considered; "Who is the target demographic for this game?" Which group of people should such a game be marketed towards; the older fans who have tons of nostalgia for this game when it came out in 1999 on the Dreamcast, the group who probably played the DX port and are clamoring for the more ambitious and experimental direction from yore? Or the current generation of gamers who have never played a Sonic game before and are looking to get into it.

    There are certainly merits in appealing to each demographic, but they also come with their own inherent risks too. If it's too much like the original, then only older fans will really appreciate it and might alienate potential new fans who might find some of its design decisions archaic and outdated. If you change too much in trying to appeal to a new generation, then you lose the nostalgic factor that makes a remake appealing in the first place. As the above post said, striking that right balance is one of the most difficult things in achieving with a remake. At it's best, you get most groups and the game is a success. At its worst, the game becomes schizophrenic and might lack an identity of its own and lose both groups, as we saw with Sonic Forces.

    But no matter what direction they go into, the game would have to lean in one direction or the other. Ideally, there would be a 50/50 split on old and new stuff. But realistically, it would be 75/25 for either direction. I strongly feel one of Sega's issues is trying too hard to get both demographics, which causes them to not commit to either direction and everything just ends up a mixed bag in the end. I don't want that. So if a game like this were to succeed, Sega would have to take the potential risk in alienating one demographic for another.

    So in that sense, I can see why some just wanna leave Sonic Adventure alone to not take that risk to begin with. Speaking for myself, I would definitely prefer them preserving as much from the original as possible, but I'm open-minded enough to accept that maybe, some things might need to change to bring the game to current standards whether I like it or not.
     
  16. E-122-Psi

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    The cool thing about Sonic Adventure 1 also is that a lot of its structure kind of allows for expansion anyway. Making the Adventure Fields larger for example with more secret areas and unlockable levels and abilities, maybe ones that aren't even mandatory so as to maintain the original flow of the game IF YOU WANTED THAT.

    Cases like Tails' levels I also think would be open to this sort of restructure. I think the only removal you might need in that regard are some of the boost rings so Tails can't cheese so easily and instead ADD more secret pathways around the main one so Tails finding short cuts is more intuitive. I also agree on the notion of Big having actual platforming, especially since his levels already seem designed to work around that. It kinda feels like the programmers doubted the player's ability to get through this game a lot of the time, when most of the time the difficulty issue isn't really with the length or challenge but the half finished engine and sometimes unclear challenge often breaking the flow (I'm sure if fishing was clearer and better built, less players would mind it as a final challenge in a proper level, especially if Big had an ability or two to make roaming as him genuinely enjoyable). Big wouldn't really need a HUGE level overhaul anyway, just a small chill roaming section to fit him being the laid back campaign. I'd be all for a small level Big could just lazily bust some enemies and obstacles before fishing for Froggy.

    Hell if they were unsure about editing the levels in standard gameplay they could just add more tier goals like SA2 did, such as a Hard Mode with longer fuller designed level layouts while the normal ones maintained their original design. Best of both worlds.

    I also agree on mission mode. DX adding one was a good idea but it felt like a cheap fan mod and most of the challenges were too esoteric. I wanted more things that exploited the use of the Adventure Fields and made entertaining use of exploring them.
     
  17. Dark Sonic

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    I really want them to re-evaluate how level missions work. I'd much prefer them to work like Crash 4, where you get an emblem for beating certain objectives upon finishing the level. Like if you beat Emeral Coast with 100 rings and in under 2:30, you should get emblems for both those objectives and one for just completing the level. Like I get Sonic is about replayability, but forced replayability sucks. Why play through the same level 3 times to barely do anything different. It's not fun it's repetitive. Here's how I'd split up the mission types.

    All: beat the level, beat level with 50/100 rings (depends on the level), beat the level without dying, find the hidden emblem in the level
    Knuckles: beat the level without using hints
    Amy: beat the level without interacting with Zero in any way (either hitting it or you getting hit by it)
    Big: catch a 2000g fish
    E-102: rack up a high score of x (E-102's gameplay seems to lend itself well to score attacks given the combo aiming system)
    I'm having trouble thinking of a unique mission for Sonic & Tails.

    Rankings would still exist but they'd be for the overall level based off time. Let's face it, they've never figured out a proper ranking system, either it's too obscure (SA2, Heroes, Unleashed) or too simple (Generations and Forces). Just make the rankings based off time trials (oddly enough that's what Lost World did, but again, it required you to play the level at least twice for really no good reason)

    And then all the zones would have a hard mode that's mirrored like the Crash 4 N.verse levels but the layout is altered beyond that. In addition to layout changes though, the enemies are more aggressive, Tails' opponent is faster, bosses take more hits and have different patterns, stuff like that.

    However I'd also be content if they just gave SA1 SA2's mission system. At least with that you only do the exact same thing twice (time trial mission and the regular stage mission) and there's more variety.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
  18. ChaddyFantome

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    I can't say I agree with reducing Rankings to simply being time based.
    Its what Generations did and it contributes to its system being so unsatisfying.
    Im not quite sure what is so obscure about SA2 or Heroes' system. Only thing I guess I would add is have the Score Bonuses have nametags so there is more clear feedback for what you did to get that Bonus. This is something Colors did, oddly enough.

    I also have concerns about how this effects rankings for missions.
    Collecting 100 Rings in a good time isnt the same challenge as getting to the goal in a good time. Both would and should be balanced as seperate challenges.
    Ranking them the same I feel is a dumbing down of the game. Especially since missions are ultimately optional. I dont see what is "forced" about optional content.
     
  19. E-122-Psi

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    Well in SA1 the mission wasn't collect 100 rings to end the game, it was collect 100 rings and reach the goal to end the game.

    I admit to kinda preferring SA2's format since it made for playing multiple variations of the same level in different ways, but of course SA2 worked differently in that regard (you could replay the different stipulations for one). It's one of those things you have to ask whether you'd want to change or preserve the authenticity of.

    I'm not sure about following Crash 4 in terms of a hard mode format however since that game was UNBEARABLY unfair in terms of adding extra difficulty (or just its standard difficulty really). I'd be fine with just longer busier versions of the levels.
     
  20. The biggest change to the formula I'd really want is a 3D Sonic that is primarily based on physics.

    The way Sonic runs, rolls and reacts to the environment.

    Make that the main focus of enjoyment, just like what the original concept for Sonic was.