Wow, talk about being pretentious. Maybe you should get off your high horse and stop trying to speak for everyone else. I—and quite a few other people—happen to fully agree with Jan's ideals and proposal for the ideal Sonic game, and subsequently the way Sonic always meant to play. The difference here is that we're not trying to make the "ideal" Sonic game—we're trying to make a spiritual sequel to the old Mega Drive games. This means that we can't think ideally as much as we should think realistically. Do you really think that the next installment of the Sonic series would be without such a core gameplay element as the Spin Dash? It broke the original Sonic formula, but it created a whole new formula in its entirety in the process. It's like there's two distinct kinds of Sonic gameplay styles. So yeah—I don't like how you come in here totally disregarding anything because it's a "wall of text." In fact, if you can't handle reading more than a paragraph or two, then we don't want you to contribute to this project. Take your impatient bullshit somewhere where you're allowed to be arrogant and impatient. Not here.
Seriously, guys. I just read Jan's post again and I still don't get the point, except that: Flowers shouldn't be put in vases or eaten Sonic levels should present existentialist quandaries Yellow matter custard, dripping from a dead dog's eye Spindash is for scrubs Crabalocker fishwife, pornographic priestess Avoid long names Did I catch everything? That didn't really need an essay.
I kind of feel sorry for people who don't appreciate philosophical essays simply because the average internet user is the most impatient asshole in the world. So very kindly I will sum up all points of this tangent so NOBODY has to go back to them. Then I'll move on. ______________________________________________________________ I found it philosophical and inspiring- although not all points I agreed with. -Sonic should be fast- not too fast. -Sonic should not be too well defined. -Sonic's natural environments are enough to let the mind do cool things. -Robotnik's mechs need no scientific explanation, provided they look like they work smoothly. -Spindash not neccessary- was an opinion argued well. I just happen to disagree with the argument that it makes us "take speed for granted". Level Names- Description followed by Location. And if you think about it- this is a point I think is interesting and wouldn't have thought myself. “Marble” zone and “Labyrinth” don't do anything for me. (Although for the record I have no problem with Panic Puppet and Celestial Complex). And yes flowers were not meant to be put in vases……although it is a good point. ________________________________________________________________ Hopefully that clears the air...permenantly. Moving on now- Is there any reason I haven't seen insta-shield mentioned yet? I checked the game plans again just to make sure its definitely not there. To me, this was just as important as “spin dash” and made Sonic differ from knucks and tails. Peel Out in my eyes is a redundant ability next to the spin dash (I don‘t mind having it, its just a bit “meh…”. Where as Insta-Shield I found was the marvel of Sonic 3+K, and a fantastic evolution that takes great skill to execute carefully. (an example- in Megamix play as Mighty and you can actually go straight through the first boss' swinging ball. That is the limit of how well it can work.)
We're designing games about anatomically incorrect hedgehogs fighting a fat man who imprisons forest critters in robots. Why do I need to get philosophical about this?
*shrug* There's kind of no direct point to that aside from the ones filmzombie so graciously extracted (thanks dude), because it dives straight into a tutorial on drawing levels, with ONOS MOAR WALL OF TEXT telling you exactly why the metaphysical bullshit actually matters. That's why I specifically asked, should I go on or not? A simple "yes" or "no" would suffice. It's kind of a third of the whole document, it's my wirting from 2006 trimmed up a bit. What?! Once again, I told you: "Warning: Incoming Wall of Text" - "WARNING" usually means "If you can't handle this, stay the hell away". But I'm done stealing this topic, if you've got comments on my persona or the stuff written, take it to PM and we'll talk.
I propose a compromise on the Spin Dash issue -- I, for one, wouldn't be against a forced delay to stop it from being spammed; of roughly a second or so, chargeup time. For anyone that would argue "OH NOES SONIC TEAM WOULDN'T HAVE DONE THAT!", fuck off. Sega aren't averse to weakening things in other games to balance them out, why not Sega (OTOH the back dash was DIRTY in Virtua Fighter 2, until they added more recovery in version 2.1 -- so cheapass timeout victories were no longer quite as common. There are probably others). But yeah, don't reject - discuss.
Forced delay as in coming to a full on stop and having to press jump a bunch of times to get up to speed? I'd like to have to rev up the spindash more then two or three presses you know? But really a lot of you guys are starting to sound like Smash Bros. tournyfags. NO SPINDASH NO PEEL OUT NO ITEMS FINAL ZONE Screwing up the spindash just because you feel it isn't needed for hardcore gamers such as yourselves seems, as was said, more idealistic than realistic. It wasn't game breaking because the levels were designed with it in mind. Yeah, the spindash breaks Sonic1 because it's not even supposed to be in there. S3K even gave practical, interactive reasons to use it. So all all that "take out the spindash because it isn't how Sonic was supposed to be" nonsense is retarded.
One of my main gripes about it is that a human being can get a small burst of speed in about 0.2 seconds, enough to cheaply avoid an attack or obstacle -- making it less 'rapid fire' would introduce a little more strategy and though into the game. Also, a semi-return to the ARGUABLY deeper play of Sonic 1, which required some creativity in places to maintain momentum and attack a level. Compare a Sonic 1 TAS to a Sonic 2 one -- where they're NOT glitching the fuck out of the collision, the Sonic 1 one appears much smoother in flow and rhythm compared to Sonic 2 being clunkier with Spindash abuse. But you know, forgive me for putting some thought into appeasing BOTH the hardcore and the casual gamers by dampening the spindash somewhat, but still keeping it. Fucking knee-jerk-reaction fucks don't know what a good idea is.
I don't think it should be removed but im not adverse to it being changed, just so long as the level is designed to fit what is picked. What I would like to see though is some way of reducing its use in the boss fights where you simply spin on the on the spot and release when an attack comes your way (makes FBZ pre-main boss lazer trap far too easy).
See, again with e tournyfaging. The spindash didn't break a damn thing. The stages where built to accommodate it. It didn't make the game any easier or harder. And to use Time Attacking as an example of "how to play the game" is misguided. It's just like how fighting game enthusiasts get into frame counting. That's a secondary, and entirely different kind of meta-game you're playing, not at all necessary for it to still be an enjoyable game. SSB: Melee "hardcore" players think that all that glitching and exploiting they do is the right way to play it . Same goes for the spindash. HARDCORE FUCK YEAH players see it as a cop out. But to get rid of it is folly. Changing it too much would be folly. I never spindashed out of the way of the FBZ miniboss, I would just calmly walk out of the way with good timing, but damn who cares if someone did dash? That's how they chose to play.
How is it tourneyfagging? SERIOUSLY, how? I fail to see this. The Spin Dash is too rapid-fire, and since it's inclusion in the series, top speed has been basically at the fingertips of the player, meaning that the entire concept of going REALLY FAST has somewhat been devalued in the series, and was only a precursor to the levels being liberally splattered with more INSTANT HIGH SPEED devices such as dash pads; which have, as of Unleashed, completely phased out even the Spin Dash itself. Thought we were keeping this oldschool, and trying not to make the same sort of ill-judged decisions Sega made for the series? Now, debate this fucker instead of "LOL TOURNEYFAG", because your arguments have the strength of a leper in a wind tunnel.
You know if the "Rapid fire" thing is that much of a problem simple, slow it down but not too much that it's pointless to use. Remember it's not really rapid fire since you do have that delay of pushing down two buttons and you are planning ahead to see if you will not get hit by anything.
Personally, the argument on whether the spin dash "broke" the game is moot since I always 100% believed Sonic gameplay was improved with its addition. Not to mention that it was already decided it would be in the game.
Totally, Spin-Dash will be in P:SR. No doubt about that. Personally, I offer the compromise of toning it down a little to appease all parties somewhat and still get attacked. Democracy, eh? It only doesn't work because people are morons.
Well did you try reading the whole post, or did you just stop after the top line? With that sais... How is it NOT Tournyfaging? There was ONE game without it. ONE fucking game without the spindash and you say that it has devalued speed. You make the leap from Sonic 2 ALL THE WAY over to Unleashed. Do you even remember how the spindash worked? I know you do but you seem to argue that you could just run along, tap a button and go spindashing into the air. The full stop, holding down, and pressing jump several times is the exact opposite of "rapid fire". You couldn't be moving even a little for it to work. You hating the spindash is like people who can play a real guitar hating on Guitar Hero. I agree totally that the new games make speed the entire point, rather then just one aspect but saying that the spindash is responsible for speed pads and grind rails is ridiculous. And besides, if a player goes into a spindash every damn time they see an incline, they should have the freedom to do that. It'd be retarded as all fucking hell, yes, but at least they have that option. They don't have to do that unlike the new games in which you have to play it they way they intend or you fall into a hole. But railroading them into NOT being able to spindash like that is just as bad. Toning it down by needed to rev it up more would be nice though. I like that leper in a wind tunnel line too. I've got to use that sometime.
