Brad Buxer and the S3 Mid Boss Theme

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by LOst, Feb 3, 2011.

  1. SpeedStarTMQ

    SpeedStarTMQ

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    <!--quoteo(post=585463:date=May 10 2011, 06:02 PM:name=Nora Kisaragi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nora Kisaragi @ May 10 2011, 06:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=585463"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are we still debating Michael Jackson's involvement in Sonic 3?

    SEGA and Sonic Team already confirmed this in Sonic Gems Collection (or was it Mega Collection, I forget?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    And where was this? :colbert:
     
  2. OKei

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    <!--quoteo(post=589447:date=May 24 2011, 11:11 PM:name=SpeedStarTMQ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpeedStarTMQ @ May 24 2011, 11:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=589447"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=585463:date=May 10 2011, 06:02 PM:name=Nora Kisaragi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nora Kisaragi @ May 10 2011, 06:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=585463"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are we still debating Michael Jackson's involvement in Sonic 3?

    SEGA and Sonic Team already confirmed this in Sonic Gems Collection (or was it Mega Collection, I forget?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    And where was this? :colbert:
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sega confirmed this with Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection, I believe.
     
  3. SpeedStarTMQ

    SpeedStarTMQ

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    Oh, that's a totally diferent game :v: I'm interested now. What did they do/say to confirm this?
     
  4. Ch1pper

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    I was thinking it was in the PS2 Sega Genesis Collection myself. I recall chuckling at the timing of reading the small factoid (something vague along the lines of "Michael Jackson was once considered to compose the music for Sonic the Hedgehog 3") shortly after reading one of Retro's last big MJ topics.

    It was either that, or a similarly vague factoid about Howard Drossin's work on S&K shortly after one of Retro's "Who did Sonic 3?" topics. The two are so intertwined; I forget which was on the PS2 Collection, just that it was one of the two. I've noticed Sega's habit of presenting things to the general public after they've been thoroughly discussed here. (MJ on Sonic 3, "Speed is a reward," etc.) I'd check right now but I don't have the console/game at the moment. If I visit my sister in the next few days I'll certainly check.
     
  5. Yuzoboy

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    I have recently been speaking with Howard Drossin and I was surprised to hear that (as much as he can remember) he did not compose any of the music for Sonic 3 & Knuckles apart from the S&K Knuckles theme, Invincible theme and the "Game theme", which I assume is the Title Screen. These are of course tracks that were replaced in Sonic & Knuckles from Sonic 3. Furthermore, he also mentioned he was unsure who did the Act 1 and 2 tracks for S3&K.

    This means that all the other composers, who were Cirocco, Bobby Brooks, Geoff Grace, Doug Grigsby III, Darryl Ross and Jun Senoue, have produced the other music for Sonic 3 & Knuckles, which of course cements the idea that Michael Jackson's contributions could have made it into S&K and not just Sonic 3. This is also possible from the fact Sonic & Knuckles was developed alongside Sonic 3.

    Sorry if this is known already and a bit off-topic but I didnt want to start a new MJ vs Sonic 3 debate in a new thread.
     
  6. muteKi

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    That matches up with what I'd heard so far. I don't suppose you'd know if he still has any other music he might have done for the project still around somewhere?
     
  7. Have you been asking him by linking him to all the songs themselves for him to listen to, instead of only naming names? That was probably discussed in one of the other threads, but it's good to make sure.
     
  8. LOst

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    This is pretty much old news, except you actually got to talk to Howard Drossin again.

    The biggest problem is the credits in S&K giving Drossin all the responsibility, and this in its own makes a lot of fans bug Howard Drossin for stuff he didn't make, like asking "DID YOU DO LAVA REEF?". Please keep in mind that Howard Drossin's kind of music is what you can hear in Comix Zone, so asking him about music that isn't even his style of music is kinda annoying to him (my guess here). And S&K's theme, as fitting and glory as it seems, is a remix of the real song which is a cheesy country song that kind doesn't fit Sonic at all if you ask me. Prove me wrong, but I have a feeling Masaru Setsumaru did the cool stuff in the title screen song, like the intro, the high middle part, and of course the cool fading ending (which was a full section in the country song).


    My suggestion is to leave Drossin alone, unless you have other things to talk about. If he got midis he wanted to share, he would have given them already. Bugging him just makes it harder to get any information in the future.
     
  9. E102

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    The only problem with what you said is that Drossin includes Invincibility as one of "his" tracks. According to the 2009 interview he said he just composed the "Knuckles theme" (S&K Knuckles) and the "Sonic theme" (S&K Title) (as proven by Sega Tunes - Virtual Sonic and ICEKnight's hack of MD Sonic 3D) and, in the 2008 interview, says that Setsumaru handled the arrangements of the latter theme, including 1-Up (as proven by ICEKnight's hack). So wouldn't Invincibility also be Setsumaru's arrangement?

    "I only composed single versions." - Drossin

    "The music was composed separately and input for the genesis by someone named Setsu (I think). didn't do any sound efx for Sonic 3." - Drossin

    Looking closer, there's one thing that I admit I completely overlooked: Virtual Sonic was recorded in 1993; it was just released three years later. So all the arrangements (not just Invincibility, 1-Up and All Clear, but also S&K Knuckles and S&K Title) could be Setsumaru's period. At the very least, the fact that those compositions existed before S3's release with the intent to be used in-game (be it S3, S&K, or S3 in the whole sense) should be the reason for Drossin's "Sound Special Thanks" credit in S3. Drossin being a "Music Composer" in S&K and S3&K then should be because those compositions were then implemented/put into place in the game. In actuality, everything he did was originally composed outside the context of the game the music wound up on. No wonder he's so bewildered about this game. :(

    If I ever spoke with Drossin I'd like to know just how much of MD Spinball's music is his. Drossin was the only one from the Institute; Blum and Coburn were from the Multi-Media Studio (different from OUI Multimedia) (credits taken from manual).

    @LOst
    Agreed. We've pretty much got all we need/can get from Drossin that made it into the final version, and that's all we should ever really ask of him as Sonic fans. If anything we should continue the chain to Setsumaru. The beta credits from S3&K are an excellent place to start, as the final part (S3 All Clear) was replaced by S&K All Clear (a Setsumaru arrangement), making the former two potentially Setsumaru's as well. Given that, the tracks chosen for the medley could be the versions Setsumaru arranged. Drossin said he did "remixes;" he didn't say they were the "Act 2" versions.

    "That would be Setsu doing the remix." - Drossin

    Mario Kart 64's voice sample credits are another good example of crediting only what is new. In the Japanese version, Charles Martinet (NoA) (Mario), Tomoko Maruno (NoJ) (Kinopio/Toad), Asako Kozuki (NoJ) (Peach), Julien Bardakoff (NoE) (Luigi), Thomas Spindler (NoE) (Wario), and John Huraton (NoA?) (Menu Voice) are credited, but the voices of Yoshi, DK and Koopa/Bowser are not because they are based/created from pre-existing sound effects (Yoshi - SMW - Koji Kondo) and voice samples (Koopa/Bowser - SM64 - Isaac Marshall). When Mario Party 1 and 2 were released, not additional voices for Toad, Luigi or Wario were necessary, so Maruno, Bardakoff and Splinder were uncredited (Eriko Ibe did Baby Bowser, not Toad). As for the US version of Mario Kart 64, Martinet replaced Huraton (as well as Bardakoff and Splindler), Leslie Swan replaced Kozuki and Isaac Marshall, despite having done the voice of Bowser (and most likely DK since both were replaced/overwritten around the same time) is only credited because he replaced Maruno as Toad.

    In keeping with the forum topic, Buxer is confirmed to have worked with MJ in creating S3's Staff Roll (the basis of Stranger in Moscow) and worked with C. Cirocco Jones (Scirocco) on the composition and arrangement of a "Level 2" and "Level 3." Combine this with the fact that Buxer's usual role when involved with MJ was arrangement (ex. HIStory album) and it can be assumed that Buxer was the one who did the majority of the production work (MJ was more-or-less a coordinator). He is listed first on the list after all.
     
  10. Yuzoboy

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    I agree with you there. I understand he can do without people bugging him about stuff rather than take interest in what he can provide in the present.
     
  11. Dark Sonic

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    Wait, what? What song is it based off of?
     
  12. Rosiero

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    I think LOst is referring to the "Sonic & Knuckles Theme" track from Virtual Sonic.
     
  13. XCubed

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    When I was originally looking for , I was expecting the more lame midi sounding version, but this doesn't sound as bad. It still has that lame 80s-90s vibe to it though and now I know where the Sonic Robo Blast 2 theme came from.....WoW. I always thought SRB2's theme was an original composition...XD
     
  14. E102

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    Sorry if this is old news, but apparently Drossin has been interviewed about MJ's involvement.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eden03qkjSk

    To any newcomers who may be reading this, I'd like to take this opportunity to state exactly what Drossin did so we can stop bugging him about it (you'll see why by the end):

    Virtual Sonic was recorded back in 1993 (as stated in the 2009 Drossin interview on here), so he composed the Sonic and Knuckles theme and Knucklemania (the tracks that S&K Title, S&K 1-Up, S&K Invincibility, S&K All Clear and S&K Knuckles' Theme were derived from) back then. Those tracks were then arranged and programmed by Masaru Setsumaru some time later (which was anywhere between that point of '93 and October '94 [when S&K was released]; the exact time of that happening is unknown). The themes were intended to be used in Sonic 3, but weren't (hence the Sound Special Thanks credit) but they were put in for Sonic & Knuckles (hence the upgrade to a Music Composer credit).

    The 517 S3&K beta (referenced in the 2008 Drossin interview) hints that the versions done by Setsumaru were created between then (May 1994) and the game's release (October 1994), as the credits music from the beta still used the Sonic 3 theme (for the All Clear jingle at the end).

    When you look at where the themes originated, Drossin was never actually involved with the production of the game at all; he was just a guy from the Institute who made a CD of Sonic music that would be used for a game but wound up being caught in the middle of a global-scale clusterf**k of rumor, scandal and minimalistic crediting.

    Oh, and Chris-chan didn't help, either. (Don't ask)
     
  15. Yuzoboy

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    I found Howard's comments on the way the Japanese credited the composers rather interesting. Its something thats evident in other games too.
     
  16. I never saw it and I know this is bumping up and old topic, but why hasn't anyone mentioned that Smooth Criminal is also related to IceCap Zone. They are the same and can be more related than the whole IceCap and Who Is It connection as you can see in this video.

    I'm not saying that Who Is It and IceCap are not related but it really more Smooth Criminal than anything.
     
  17. ICEknight

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    It's in the wiki.
     
  18. I know that but no one mentioned it on this thread that is why I shared that thread.
     
  19. JaxTH

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    Jack shit.
    It's been discussed about for at least 5 years. :v:

    Plus it's on the wiki.
     
  20. I know it is on the wiki.