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Brad Buxer and the S3 Mid Boss Theme

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by LOst, Feb 3, 2011.

  1. LOst

    LOst

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    I might be grasping at straws here.

    It is obvious that Teddy Riley is being sponsored by Open Labs <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GwKoUEnejs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GwKoUEnejs</a> , and that left me thinking: "Are these guys forced to play a certain style of music because they are sponsored to use one music device?"

    What has Teddy Riley to do with Sonic 3? Nothing! But he is linked to Brad Buxer in one way (using the same synthesizer). Teddy Riley is the only credited person for keyboards, synthesizers, rhythm and synthesizer in "Remember the Time" (1992) which uses a wierd sounding sample (sounds like it could be a ghost from S&K Sandopolis Act 2 appearing, but it is not the same, don't even go there!) at 0:01 into the song, that is also clearly used in "Blood On The Dancefloor" at 0:04, where Brad Buxer and Teddy Riley are both credited. "Blood On The Dancefloor" has the Knuckles/Middle Boss beat at 1:37 at a different frequency than the default snare drum beat, making it disappear when using a "remove voice" effect. Now, if they were sponsored to use a specific synthesizer at this time period (1992-1996), what could the brand be? Well, there is only one legitimate video on Youtube of Brad Buxer on Youtube, where the channel is possibly owned by himself. It is a MTV interview from 1992 <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wyxEM1_f4s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wyxEM1_f4s</a> where Brad is sitting in front of what seems to be his favorite synthesizer, or possibly sponsored by the company who made it? It is called AKAI MX1000. So I used <a href="http://synthmania.com/" target="_blank">http://synthmania.com/</a> (which I use from time to time to hopefully locate Sonic CD JP sounds, to no success so far!) and found a recording of random drums played on some AKAI synth (not the exact same as Brad used in the video), and in that recording, where snare drums and claps were used all the time, in the middle of the randomly hit keys, I heard the beats which seemed to be some kind of claps that were more real than the default midi clap, and also pre-recorded at the pitches (three of them), which can play the Knuckles theme, I guess. It is always possible to pitch sounds.

    Now, I don't have enough proof to confirm that this is the exact beat samples used. I wish I could. My attempts to contact Brad through the Youtube channel has been cleverly done to not bring up Sonic 3, but no answers whatsoever! (and that means, don't try it yourself, it will just be harder each time an attempt fails) Well, he (if he is the right guy) did approve my video reply though, which can indicate he "might" have been the composer for the Mid Boss theme (most likely), instead of ignoring it.

    And here it is:
    <a href="http://www.logotypes.se/sonic/sneakybuxer.mp3" target="_blank">http://www.logotypes.se/sonic/sneakybuxer.mp3</a>

    I agree with all of you who says "drum beats mostly sound the same on most synthesizers, so this proves nothing", and also "pitch is wrong". But I wish I am right! There are 3 special samples, with those ranges (I was lucky to cut them all out (one of them wasn't played fully) without getting a hi-hat or something played at the same time). But yeah, if it doesn't prove anything, at least it shows you that this kind of research should be done, and we should never give up on finding the truth about Sonic 3's music, or Sonic CD JP's synthesizers and sounds.

    Now, if any of you, or some random lurker reading this have access to a AKAI synthesizer, please locate and rip those samples in as high quality as possible, as if they are the right ones, a true CD quality Knuckles theme would be possible to make, as the drums possible come from the same synth, and the original guy voice sample in the theme is available already.
     
  2. XCubed

    XCubed

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    It's great to see that research is still being done! I've heard that part of blood on the dance floor, but never of that quality. I don't own the song and have only had access to the youtube quality version.
     
  3. SteelBrush

    SteelBrush

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    I have actually been doing my own research on the SCD JP soundtrack. I can't really help with S3 but I think I can with SCD. Although have you searched YT for Akai demonstrations? I'm on my iPhone right now so I'll find the channel and be back.

    EDIT:

    No, unfortunately this guy only does 70s and 80s, a shame as he has his own website.

    As for SCD the technique I have been using is listening to music of the era to idenitify similar samples, drum sounds, ect. to what was used in SCD, finding out what equipment that artist used and seeing if it was applicable to what could have been used by Hataya and Ogata.

    It could be worth finding out what other artists Buxer worked with during that time period and see if any S3 like sounds can heard. So for example Buxer worked on a Spice Girls track (I know he didn't but for the sake of explanation) you could then look up what synths were used on Spice Girl songs rather than what synths were used by Brad Buxer, it opens another avenue of investigation.
     
  4. LockOnRommy11

    LockOnRommy11

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    That is definitely the same beat. How awesome. We're learning new things about this Sonic/Michael Jackson/Composer link all the time. It fascinates me.
     
  5. Yuzoboy

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    I think the entire MJ/Sonic 3 link will be revealed eventually, the original MJ contributions to Sonic 3's soundtrack still exist with Scirocco.

    But im glad people are still researching this topic, thanks for the info LOst!
     
  6. Rockman Zero

    Rockman Zero

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    Speaking of Sonic CD, a while ago I heard a sample that sounded just like the one heard in the beginning of "You Can Do Anything." <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JTxiIcm9Oik#t=344s" target="_blank">Check out this Roland D70 preset demonstration</a>. I think you'll be very happy, LOst. ;)
     
  7. evilhamwizard

    evilhamwizard

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    Sorry for bumping the thread, but I wanted to bring this up because no one said ANYTHING about it ever since I posted about it. But since LOst brought up Ted Riley this would be the perfect time to bring it up.

    About two years a go I posted this:

    <a href="http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=24094&view=findpost&p=217643" target="_blank">http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?sho...st&p=217643</a>

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh yeah, and uhh...guys:
    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBTAGVnfXAw" target="_blank">Sonic 3 Mini Boss</a> meets <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtStNQ_wDh8" target="_blank">It Takes 2</a>
    Listen to 0:33-0:39 for "It Takes 2" and then listen to 0:41-0:47 for Sonic 3's Mini Boss theme and tell me that isn't similar.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Now I know that video games doing some variation of It Takes 2 is nothing new, but since LOst brought up Ted Riley I knew the name was familiar. Back when I posted this, I wanted to see if anyone from the Sonic 3 credits list showed up as staff for It Takes 2 and according to Wikipedia, Ted Riley produced It Takes 2.

    Just something to consider I suppose.
     
  8. Shadix

    Shadix

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    <!--quoteo(post=569008:date=Mar 15 2011, 04:44 PM:name=evilhamwizard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (evilhamwizard @ Mar 15 2011, 04:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=569008">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry for bumping the thread, but I wanted to bring this up because no one said ANYTHING about it ever since I posted about it. But since LOst brought up Ted Riley this would be the perfect time to bring it up.

    About two years a go I posted this:

    <a href="http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=24094&view=findpost&p=217643" target="_blank">http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?sho...st&p=217643</a>

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh yeah, and uhh...guys:
    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBTAGVnfXAw" target="_blank">Sonic 3 Mini Boss</a> meets <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtStNQ_wDh8" target="_blank">It Takes 2</a>
    Listen to 0:33-0:39 for "It Takes 2" and then listen to 0:41-0:47 for Sonic 3's Mini Boss theme and tell me that isn't similar.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Now I know that video games doing some variation of It Takes 2 is nothing new, but since LOst brought up Ted Riley I knew the name was familiar. Back when I posted this, I wanted to see if anyone from the Sonic 3 credits list showed up as staff for It Takes 2 and according to Wikipedia, Ted Riley produced It Takes 2.

    Just something to consider I suppose.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Meh Teddy Riley was involved in pretty much everything in this style. Discovering Teddy Riley's "style" may be one thing but you guys have to understand this man made an entire career for creating this style, known as the New Jack Swing.

    "New jack swing did not take up the trend of using sampled beats, and instead created beats using the then-new SP-1200 and Roland 808 drum machines to lay an "insistent beat under light melody lines and clearly enunciated vocals."[1] Encyclopædia Britannica states that the "key producers" were Babyface and Teddy Riley.[1]"

    There's your answer. If you wanted a real lead lets go find those samples.

    Despite what that says there was alot of sampling going on still in the hip hop scene where they would make one hits out of other vinyl recordings, so, it is also possible the knuckles beat may be a spliced up drum kit from a song too.
     
  9. E102

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    Personally I think S&K Collection answers the question of what was done by MJ quite effectively, and when you combine (1) the associations Brad, Bobby, Doug, Geoff and Darryl have with MJ, (2) Cirocco's profile information, and (3) the Black & White interview, the rest of the holes fill themselves in. MJ composed all his original songs, Buxer arranged them for the game just like his regular work [which is why he's still in the credits], and the rest programmed them just like with his original songs [again, why they're still in the credits]. Simple as that.

    HIStory
    HIStory/Ghosts

    Furthermore, the fact that Cirocco contributed to versions that in all likelihood were removed not only opens up the possibility that the remaining tracks could have been constructed based on MJ's, but they also justify you making mashups for the tracks not replaced in S&K Collection (even though Marble Garden, Lava Reef and Azure Lake made it fairly obvious if you ask me).

    Angel Island Zone Act 1 & 2 -> Dangerous
    Hydrocity Zone Act 1 -> Give in to Me
    Hydrocity Zone Act 2 -> Blood on the Dancefloor
    Marble Garden Zone Act 1 & 2 -> Thriller
    Mushroom Hill Zone Act 1 & 2 -> Can't Let Her Get Away
    Flying Battery Zone Act 1 & 2 -> Smooth Criminal
    Sandopolis Zone Act 1 & 2 -> Ghosts
    Lava Reef Zone Act 1 -> Dirty Diana
    Lava Reef Zone Act 2 -> Remember the Time (?) [one of these two]
    Sky Sanctuary Zone -> Remember the Time (?) [one of these two]
    Death Egg Zone Act 1 & 2 -> Billie Jean
    Azure Lake Zone -> Black or White
    Balloon Park Zone -> The Way You Make Me Feel
    Chrome Gadget Zone -> Scream
    Desert Palace Zone -> Why You Wanna Trip on Me
    Endless Mine Zone -> Streetwalker

    Then of course there's the ones definitely handled by MJ et al. (Composed by Michael Jackson, arranged by Brad Buxer, programmed by the other four)

    Carnival Night Zone Act 1 & 2 -> Jam
    IceCap Zone Act 1 & 2 -> Who Is It
    Launch Base Zone Act 1 & 2 -> Bad
    Knuckles' Theme (S3) -> In the Closet
    Act 1 Boss (S3) -> They Don't Care About Us
    Staff Roll (S3) -> Stranger in Moscow
    Competition -> You Rock My World

    This isn't rocket science. It's only research.

    I'm glad I can be of service to you, gents.
     
  10. RGX

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    I don't know if this will help the research but looking at a few past posts regarding the type of music that sound similar to Sonic 3 songs, this was the first one on the top of my head.

    Whodini- Freaks come out at night
    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1PDa9qmMxw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1PDa9qmMxw</a>

    Marble Garden Act 1
    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Qw10LYqye4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Qw10LYqye4</a>

    Maybe Marble Garden could've been inspired from this, because it definitely gives me that vibe.
     
  11. <!--quoteo(post=584988:date=May 7 2011, 07:46 PM:name=E102)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (E102 @ May 7 2011, 07:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=584988">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Flying Battery Zone Act 1 & 2 -> Smooth Criminal
    IceCap Zone Act 1 & 2 -> Who is It<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Are you sure? At one point QJimbo dismissed ICZ-Who Is It, and I've never heard FBZ-Smooth Criminal.
     
  12. E102

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    <!--quoteo(post=585183:date=May 8 2011, 11:04 PM:name=Hendricks 266)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hendricks 266 @ May 8 2011, 11:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=585183">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=584988:date=May 7 2011, 07:46 PM:name=E102)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (E102 @ May 7 2011, 07:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=584988">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Flying Battery Zone Act 1 & 2 -> Smooth Criminal
    IceCap Zone Act 1 & 2 -> Who is It<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Are you sure? At one point QJimbo dismissed ICZ-Who Is It, and I've never heard FBZ-Smooth Criminal.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsFadmUQbm0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsFadmUQbm0</a> - Smooth Battery

    As for IceCap, I have always seen Who is It as the closer match. Whereas QJimbo noted on speeding it up to make it match, I noticed that it still sounds the same even at normal speed (compare <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c8YIhF-Xsk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c8YIhF-Xsk</a> at 0:40 to the beginning of Act 1). Also, say the lyrics to the rhythm of Ice Cap (especially the chorus); they fit too well compared to Smooth Criminal.

    Shame about QJimbo, though; sounds like he's been exhausted. Fortunately people like Yuzo, murphy341, Ferr986, pitlight and myself (the ones for Can't Let Her Get Away, Remember the Time, Ghosts and Streetwalker are my personal suggestions) are here to further his ambition and finish unraveling this mystery.

    Now I have to honestly ask now: Who here has ever actually researched Buxer to Ross instead of blindly going by their credit? I seem to be the only person I know who's gone that far in.
     
  13. steveswede

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    Ok ladies and gentlemen, I believe I have found some samples matching the Knuckles theme. While I may not be completely right, I do believe I have come across the modules that they were using. I have put this through a mastering plugin just to give it a bit of a thump but very subtle.
    <a href="http://www.filedropper.com/knucklestheme" target="_blank">http://www.filedropper.com/knucklestheme</a>

    And here's a load of Roland drum packs where I got them from.
    <a href="http://rapidshare.com/files/26028235/Roland.rar" target="_blank">http://rapidshare.com/files/26028235/Roland.rar</a>
     
  14. Mercury

    Mercury

    His Name Is Sonic Tech Member
    Is there something I'm missing? Because I wouldn't think that matching up Sonic 3&K's music to MJ music (chord changes, etc) would tell us anything at all. Are we really supposed to believe that each song in the game was a ripoff of an existing song, or that the ones that weren't were reused later on MJ albums when he ran out of ideas? If songs sounding similar meant anything, then Frank Sinatra composed Sonic 1, and Jeff Lynne composed Sonic 3.

    Searching for samples, etc, is totally reasonable. But Smooth Battery? Seriously? I'm sure you could do that with anything. Look how well these fit, and they're all by different composers:

    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/J3l1B3NT8aA&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/J3l1B3NT8aA&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->

    Chord sequences are used and reused by everybody, because there's a limited amount, especially within genres. I just don't know what is supposed to be proved or disproved by pretending that Lava Reef sounds like Dirty Diana, despite the protests of our ears and common sense.
     
  15. LOst

    LOst

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    <!--quoteo(post=585225:date=May 9 2011, 07:07 AM:name=steveswede)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steveswede @ May 9 2011, 07:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=585225">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok ladies and gentlemen, I believe I have found some samples matching the Knuckles theme. While I may not be completely right, I do believe I have come across the modules that they were using. I have put this through a mastering plugin just to give it a bit of a thump but very subtle.
    <a href="http://www.filedropper.com/knucklestheme" target="_blank">http://www.filedropper.com/knucklestheme</a>

    And here's a load of Roland drum packs where I got them from.
    <a href="http://rapidshare.com/files/26028235/Roland.rar" target="_blank">http://rapidshare.com/files/26028235/Roland.rar</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I am not sure at all when listening to this. I know Roland pretty well, and the drums are weak, and reverb is high, which is not MJ's style. The "claps" in the Mid-Boss music (or whatever they are supposed to be), are not snare drum beats as Blood On The Dancefloor has an already powerful snare drum, and the "claps" are played on another channel, indicating they might even be a full sample (the whole beat), and not just some snare drum combination.

    Anyway, thanks for the research! The more people are looking, eventually we will find it. It is not like Buxer makes the noice from his belly, but if he did, we would still find it by walking into his house and steal his belly while he is asleep or something.
     
  16. steveswede

    steveswede

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    <!--quoteo(post=585280:date=May 9 2011, 11:28 AM:name=LOst)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LOst @ May 9 2011, 11:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=585280">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am not sure at all when listening to this. I know Roland pretty well, and the drums are weak, and reverb is high, which is not MJ's style. The "claps" in the Mid-Boss music (or whatever they are supposed to be), are not snare drum beats as Blood On The Dancefloor has an already powerful snare drum, and the "claps" are played on another channel, indicating they might even be a full sample (the whole beat), and not just some snare drum combination.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    LOst I'm surprised you say this because in the video you uploaded it shows Brad Buxer using a Roland MKS-70 module while practicing (and the AKAI MX1000 is a midi keyboard by the way) but also you should know yourself that no professional music artist would just stick samples together without properly mixing them down. Considering how high profile and how much a perfectionist MJ was, it would be fair to say that he would be using some of the best hardware effects so he can get the sound of his samples glued together and his sound perfect. Not only that but trying to emulate sounds is one the the hardest things to do, even impossible without the proper equipment and parameters. Also with you saying Roland drums are weak and reverb is high, you should know that you can give the illusion of higher quality drums by adding reverb to them but also reverb can be trimmed to produce dry samples so to nit pick on stuff like that doesn't hold up.


    You have stated yourself that Buxer worked with MJ and it's pretty obvious that there is his work in MJ's stuff. Don't think that it's all MJ's ideas that make up all of his songs. MJ was mainly the singer, dancer and the front poster boy. MJ had a team of people working with him bouncing ideas to make good tunes. It could be fair to say that Baxer showed this sample, MJ loved it and just put in his track.

    Shocking, yes.
    Unbelievable, no.

    Also you say that you know Roland pretty well. Listen to this.

    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/51qz0IXlSqA&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/51qz0IXlSqA&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->

    Recognize the pattern. Are you so sure that MJ did not use Roland products.
     
  17. E102

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    <!--quoteo(post=585277:date=May 9 2011, 10:38 AM:name=Mercury)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mercury @ May 9 2011, 10:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=585277">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is there something I'm missing? Because I wouldn't think that matching up Sonic 3&K's music to MJ music (chord changes, etc) would tell us anything at all. Are we really supposed to believe that each song in the game was a ripoff of an existing song, or that the ones that weren't were reused later on MJ albums when he ran out of ideas? If songs sounding similar meant anything, then Frank Sinatra composed Sonic 1, and Jeff Lynne composed Sonic 3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You're right. It could all very well be meaningless, but until the day those early versions surface I would like to believe in this fairly legit circumstance.

    Besides, the 10 that can be attributed to Jackson et al. aren't exactly the best fitting either (with the exception of Staff Roll for obvious reasons); they're really only favored by the actual situation. The MJ-definites sync to the same degree as the others from what I'm hearing, and that is why I think pursuing the others is a worthwhile endeavor - they sync just as well. So what if the people at Sega handled those tracks? That doesn't necessarily mean they went in a completely different direction from what was originally given.

    Getting back on track with the thread topic, I have no issues with him doing the "Come on." It seems right enough, therefore it must be right. I've learned not to think too much about this things, or else I'll only become increasingly more wrong.
     
  18. Nora Kisaragi

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    Are we still debating Michael Jackson's involvement in Sonic 3?

    SEGA and Sonic Team already confirmed this in Sonic Gems Collection (or was it Mega Collection, I forget?)
     
  19. LOst

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    <!--quoteo(post=585463:date=May 10 2011, 06:02 PM:name=Nora Kisaragi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nora Kisaragi @ May 10 2011, 06:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=585463">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are we still debating Michael Jackson's involvement in Sonic 3?

    SEGA and Sonic Team already confirmed this in Sonic Gems Collection (or was it Mega Collection, I forget?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I guess so. No, this is more of finding individual credits since there were so many composers in Sonic 3.
     
  20. Qjimbo

    Qjimbo

    Your friendly neighbourhood lemming. Oldbie
    <!--quoteo(post=585200:date=May 9 2011, 12:46 AM:name=E102)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (E102 @ May 9 2011, 12:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=585200">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shame about QJimbo, though; sounds like he's been exhausted. Fortunately people like Yuzo, murphy341, Ferr986, pitlight and myself (the ones for Can't Let Her Get Away, Remember the Time, Ghosts and Streetwalker are my personal suggestions) are here to further his ambition and finish unraveling this mystery.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'm not really exhausted, just busy with other stuff. And as much as I enjoy mashups I hardly count that as unraveling a mystery, since most that work are just coincidental (or at the very least, there will always be people who say it is coincidence). Finding more facts showing a link between MJ and Sonic 3 are where it's at.

    Cool find LOst, could be grasping at straws but those samples are so dead on. Have you tried cutting them out and comparing them directly to the <a href="http://sonicresearch.org/basement/site_parts/mj_s3_files/s3sampswav.rar" target="_blank">Sonic 3 DAC samples</a>?