Would You Rather A Modern Or Classic Style Game For The 30th Anniversary Game

That was Paramount though, not Sega. Sega was incredibly hands-off when it came to the movie since all they did was sell a license to Paramount. The director saw the general feedback and did make a more positive change, yes, but given Sega's MO, it's not likely that they're going to risk another similar incident themselves. It's bad marketing they are desperate to avoid by playing it safe.

 

I think the point is that Sonic is stale; he himself looks stale from a design perspective, and the series' visual design as a whole is pretty dang stale. Whether we're talking about enthusiasts in communities like this or Joe Public seeing a Sonic game in stores or on the internet, Sonic's doesn't look too hot right now. The character models they've been using and tweaking since at least 2008 are really showing their age. The key art using said models with the characters stood in very stiff and uninteresting poses isn't eye-catching. The imagery of Sonic running through Green Hill again isn't exciting anytime. The movie came out last year to unexpectedly good reception, and we know that the visuals of the movie were pretty much everything.

I don't know what Wraith is suggesting, but I don't think that Sonic needs a redesign. Rather, Sonic just needs a fresh new artstyle. The art of the series needs updating, not totally changing. Unleashed was so welcome in 2008 because it established a fresh and modern look after the '06 was such a visual half-step into the new generation. We're now approaching 13 years since Unleashed came out. The character models have barely changed in all this time. The animations are so stiff and dry too. A lot has changed in the industry since, but Sonic hasn't really moved with the times at all.

Modern Sonic isn't modern anymore.

 

Sonic Colors 2 would be nice.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that nothing should be left off the table if they decide to take a hard look at the visual identity of the series. Modern Sonic looks good, but I don't think anything about how he looks or moves is the best they could do, especially nowadays. Experimentation backfires sometimes, but it's also how we got modern in the first place.

If they decide they're going to change the artstyle of the series like they did with Lost World, the way Sonic looks and moves should be up for consideration as well. I think Lost World's concept for a looser, more exaggerated take on the series has potential but they didn't go far enough with it. They were too anchored to Modern's design and how he's understood to move(the same stiff joints, expressions and gestures as always). I want them to be willing to move away from that idea of Sonic in pursuit of something greater.

 

Right?! Look at the conventions that Sonic is sticking to, and assess them. What potential is there for change, what is still sufficient? Artistic design and game design. There's no need to change everything, but there's tons that could be freshened up. This all goes back into what I said in my first post on this thread; Sonic needs to move forwards rather than adhering to some stifling notion of modern or classic.

I think that the Sonic series right now is in a similar place to Mario back in the Wii U days; Mario was still going strong, but NSMBU, 3DW and Colour Splash were all criticised for the same reasons that I'm now criticising Sonic for. Fuck if SEGA have the care to give Sonic his Odyssey moment, but they need to try something. I just want them to go all-in on Sonic for a change. Not some other half-hearted and non-committal effort like Lost World and Forces, not do I want to see them get cold feet and dial-back their plans before even announcing a game like they did with Boom.

 

Sonic as a series cannot survive through nothing but nostalgia pandering.

That's not to say that a new 2D game like Mania wouldn't be appreciated--I'd love that (if it were actually made to the same level as Mania or even better, mind you)! But I feel like making your 30th anniversary game some kind of 2D platformer is basically saying that everything past 1999 is pointless. You'd be celebrating ten years of Sonic, not 30.

With the news of Sonic Team being disbanded and a new American-led Sonic Studio being the new stewards of the series, I'm interested in seeing what exactly SEGA cooks up for the 30th anniversary. Normally I'd be cynical, but this is the most likely opportunity for SEGA to get the 3D series back on track, and while they have a lot to prove, and I'm not expecting some Nintendo-beating masterpiece here, I'm still really interested. 3D Sonic has been overseen by the same major group of people for like 20 years at this point--a fresh set of hands and eyes with some old talent mixed in may mark a dramatic shift.

Or it can just be another wonky janky 3D platformer that's four hours long

If you want the long and short of it: the 30th anniversary should be focused on two games: a sequel to Mania by Evening Star and whatever Sonic Studio has cooked up. Unfortunately, we probably won't get the first.

 

It's not.

 

The aesthetic question can be felt the most as, frankly, I've never liked Unleashed's Pixar revamp to begin with, and feel it's only stunted the stylistic development of the series by opting for as safe and tame a look as possible, rather than his historically very distinct balance of shonen edge with rubber hose antics. I am glad many others are becoming as tired of these models as I've been, even if not quite for the same reasons. But these designs are so strong that a shift in presentation, even if it is as drastic as the jump from Classic to Adventure, wouldn't hurt recognition at all. If anything it could revitalize interest and enthusiasm, if handled with enough care and understanding of what defines Sonic aesthetically.

I think that, in general, Sonic as a series could do with some honest introspection to assess its core elements, its strengths and its failures, and overhaul itself into something that evolves those defining traits--mechanically, aesthetically, and narratively, instead of coasting on bare recognition alone and half-hearted references to older games with stronger identities than anything released in the past decade+. By that token, I'd very much like to see a committed 3D evolution of Sonic's core principles.

 

I'm gonna echo that the series needs a severe overhaul as of late, on all fronts. I don't want another Sonic Mania, a game that basically does everything in its power to remind you of the good ole days, even if it did it extremely well. And I don't want another souless grab at nostalgia like Forces was. I want something that really is gonna push the series forward to the next generation. The series has been severely stagnant since Colors, with the biggest thing happening in the last decade was a failed off shoot that had as much impact as a wet fart.

I feel like the biggest problem is that both Sega and the fandom are still so traumatized from Sonic 06, that neither of them are willing to take any risks out of fear of making another Sonic 06. But that hesitancy has led to some of the most stale and whitebread games ever. Even Sonic Mania, as much as I love it to death, doesn't really push the envelope all that much and is in many respects, inferior to Sonic 3, it's direct predecessor of over 20 years.


We need to collectively get over Sonic 06; it happened and there's nothing we can do to change that. We need to stop thinking about what happened with a game 14 year old game, and start looking forward and asking ourselves what this series can be. Until we can do that, the question of whether we want a "modern" or "classic" game is a pointless one to ask imo.

 

I think the Pixar look worked well for what Unleashed was going for honestly. They needed to pull back on the realism while still showing how great Sonic looked on "modern" next-gen consoles. You also have to consider that Sonic was not nearly as stiff and bland in that game as the games that followed after it. The cutscene animation in Colors is a far cry from Unleashed's in terms of expression, posing, exaggeration, and movement. I think the problem here honestly is that Sega doesn't feel they have the time nor the resources to put into such animation (especially if we consider Forces' talking head cutscenes). The artstyle can be used well to great results, but Sega isn't willing to put in the effort. For that reason, maybe it is fair to say an art style change could help, but how long would it help before Sega got lazy again?

Honestly, it's interesting if you look at the history of the franchise from 06 to Forces. Both games are on the opposite sides of the spectrum and considered low points for the series for differing reasons. 06 Was overambitious, and due to a long-troubled development, it flopped. Forces on the other hand were very unambitious and rushed out the door without much resources being put into it. Sega needs to realize that you can find a good balance between either end of the spectrum: be ambitious while being realistic of the cost, and don't be afraid to try new things.

As an aside though, I do recall some years ago on this board that some thought Sonic changed radically with every single game that had come out to that point? This would've been around the time of Colors' release.

 

I would love a Mania sequel but I'm really confident that we won't see until they can get Modern Sonic right.

I'm pretty sure the embarrassment of being outshined by people who were once fan developers really got to Sonic Team and SEGA of Japan as a whole and they refuse to approve of another Classic game project until a Modern game gets similar reception or better.

It's been 4 years now too. I know SEGA isn't doing amazing right now, with many layoffs having occurred recently, and the pandemic, but I hope they've realized returning to the Adventure style (and by that I mean the first one especially) would benefit the games and fandom as a whole. If we were in a situation where we were getting great modern and classic games the fandom wouldn't be arguing if Sonic's eyes were ruining the games. They'd just be playing them and be happy to be Sonic fans.

I'm just worried that if all we get is a modern game this year (if we get anything), and it's mid then what are we going to do? Remember what happened to the Kingdom Hearts fandom after 3 wasn't universally beloved? It went from being huge to being a cult following in less than a few months.

I can see something similar happening to Sonic if they show they didn't learn their lessons after Forces. Yeah the media stuff will still get attention and do fine but I can see the fandom majorly changing if the next game is no good. Just sitting here with my fingers crossed.

 

Unleashed looks really good, it really does, but at this point I'm tired of the aesthetic choices they've gone with for the 3D games.

I want 3D Sonic to maintain the same color-soaked and surreal atmosphere of the Genesis trilogy. If they wanna set a level in a city, then I want it to look like Studiopolis or something similar. I crave a 3D Sonic that is as surreal and captivating as Mania in terms of art design, properly taking that aesthetic and then bringing it into 3D.

The thing is, Sonic Team can do it. The ARK in particular feels like the last example of that surreal art design, honestly to the point that it almost feels out of place compared to the rest of SA2 (and even more so in the case of Shadow when you return to it). Man, the ARK is just really wild-looking when you think about it.

 

Something sorta like Rayman Origins was for the Rayman series would be good. Not exactly though (Origins has it's own oddities), but a refresh of that kind that revamps the series' entire vibe and creates a new standard for it. That's the kind of thing I think Sonic needs nowadays.

Sonic can't keep reminding us of the good old days. Eventually, the only thing left to be nostalgic for will be the same stuff that wasted it's days on nostalgia. And then what?

 

...

 

You just made me do the biggest smile and laugh I've had in MONTHS. I love you so much, Tyson.

 

One thing I miss from the older games is an influence for the world and culture that surrounded the series IE our world. Sonic post 2013 is very insular and self referential in it's stylistic choices, but ironically that really doesn't remind me of the Sonic I grew up with at all.

Sonic was forgoing simplistic gaming melodies to take influence from popular music genres from the very beginning. The developers were taking real world vacations to Mayan ruins and real life cityscapes to get inspiration for locales to create Sonic's own world. Street art inspired Sonic Adventure's loose, scratchy official art. Unleashed is a global adventure that puts a stylistic spin on our entire planet and reimagines it as a playground for Sonic. You get the idea.

Of course, you shouldn't just try to be modern and trendy for the sake of it, but I think the difference between Sonic Adventure and something like, say Shadow the Hedgehog trying to pick up shooter elements is that they're considerate in their implementation. It wouldn't be that weird for Sonic to pick up break dancing or skate culture during his travels. That, and rail grinding and tricks are something that they implemented into the Sonic framework in ways that mostly make sense.

And, I mean, this philosophy extended to the gaming world too. Sonic was conceived to show off the Genesis's strong points as a piece of hardware. Not every Sonic game could stay at the forefront of the gaming world after that, but they at least tried up until Unleashed, where the day levels represented a genuinely really impressive technical showcase. The type of thing that would turn a normal person's head even if they didn't really care about Sonic.

This is the main thing that separates the Sonic of yesteryear from the Sonic of now to me, and why Sonic Unleashed didn't immediately set off any alarm bells despite the art shift. It's not insular. It's aware of the world that's going on around it and not in some bubble shaped like Classic's head.

 

I feel like a large reason for that is as someone pointed out to me in another thread; Sonic isn't a trend setter anymore. In the older days, Sonic had his own console to show off all of his strengths and force his own path that made him notable. After the series went third party, that was no longer possible. Sonic had to follow the guidelines set forth by other franchises to gain ground. Attempting to do what the series was doing before...well, we saw the results of that.

Sonic's kind of in a unique position as far as gaming franchises go; unlike almost any other franchise, Sonic started as a first party, flagship franchise that headlined his own line of consoles and only went third party later on. So it begs the question of how much can Sega pull from systems they honestly have no idea about versus developing their own consoles and understanding how they function to get the most out of them.

 

Just to comment on this in particular, KH3 hardly made the series irrelevant and laughed at in the same way 06 did to Sonic. The series is still incredibly popular and a lot of the backlash of KH3 was frankly overstated. After the DLC came out, the hardline naysayers were willing to give it another chance.

That said, there is an important lesson to take away from it: DO NOT announce a game 6 years early and then drip feed info. In tandem with the promise that it would wrap up major plotlines from the entirety of the series, the massive wait between news drops built up so much hype that someone actually stole copies from a retailer and leaked them online weeks before release. Such hype can't be sustainable because everyone builds it up into something so amazing that it blows away everyone's expectations, but in reality, they can never be met. That's one big reason I think a remake of the Adventure games or *shudders* Sonic Adventure 3 would be a massive mistake for Sega. Hype would be built up to such an unrealistic degree that people would tear them apart.

 

Well, this one will be fun.



This is the review searches for KH from 2015 to 2020. It has never been as high as it was before Kingdom Hearts 3 came out. I checked KH3 as well to see if it was true there too. Surely if something was popular or well liked it'd still be searched constantly correct?

The game that came out last year opened to number 13 in Japan and sold around 30,000 copies in it's first week. It didn't even bother charting in the US or EU because no one bought it. The fandom took a huge hit after the game and it did hurt the popularity of the fandom.



Also the game only sold a million copies on PS4 and Xbox One. It was down to $20 less than a year after it came out. So it didn't even sell all that great either. Kingdom Hearts 2 sold 4 million copies in 2 years BTW. On ONE console.

The only people who say otherwise are huge fans of the series who refuse to accept that 3 wasn't well received and after people waited FOURTEEN years for it and were let down, they moved on. It's not still incredibly popular nor does it deserve to be.

You think people are going to wait in bated breath again for 4 after 3 ended being so bad? Knowing 4 is probably another 8 years away? Don't be silly.