Would You Rather A Modern Or Classic Style Game For The 30th Anniversary Game

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by MagnusTheGreen, Apr 21, 2021.

  1. Beltway

    Beltway

    Temptive Bongwater, Sealed in Can Member
    1,484
    66
    28
    Sega of Darkest Peru
    college courses / anime trash crusader
    Since we’re back on that SA1 v SA2 linearity debate. While the routes/progression of the stages in SA1 are linear, I’d argue the construction of the environments aren’t. Most of the stages there try to incorporate differing amounts of playspace that correspond to the level theme. So even when the levels still send you down one direction, the locations feel different enough for people to say that the levels in that game don’t feel as linear as those from the sequel. The Prima Games maps of the stages from both titles confirms as much.

    Besides, I’ve been saying for a while now that the major value of SA1’s stages over SA2 for me is less from its linearity (though having unique stage creation doesn’t hurt) and more for the array of platforming challenges that it offers. If I wanted a Sonic game where speedrunning was the main/only point of playing, I’d honestly rather play Boost games like Unleashed and Generations. I think they’re much better designed for that purpose.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  2. Aerosol

    Aerosol

    FML and FU2 Moderator
    10,702
    120
    43
    Not where I want to be.
    Sonic (?): Coming summer of 2055...?
    @BlueSpikeball: Ok. So it's your opinion now leave it at that then yea? You don't like it, that's fine. You've got literally nothing else to add to the discussion about it if all you can say is "I don't like that". Hence why I said "let people enjoy things".
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2021
  3. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    Member
    1,014
    234
    43
    If that was addressed at me, my initial reply was a response to a post specifically telling people to explain why they prefer less linearity in their levels. And I didn't just say "I don't like linearity", I explained my stance like asked to.
     
  4. Aerosol

    Aerosol

    FML and FU2 Moderator
    10,702
    120
    43
    Not where I want to be.
    Sonic (?): Coming summer of 2055...?
    If you can't see how your defence of non-linearity is coming off as needlessly confrontational I don't know what to say to you. Watching the conversation go around in circles is kind of annoying though.
     
  5. kyasarintsu

    kyasarintsu

    Member
    121
    21
    18
    I really liked that SA1 had a lot more "natural" environments with less blatant repeat setpieces. I feel like the increasing artificiality and repetition in environmental design started with SA2 and got really bad by the time Shadow rolled around. Places like Red Mountain and Twinkle Park have an open-air feeling to them and their non-corridor structures, despite the ultimate linearity, makes the levels more interesting and inviting. As much as I really do not like 06, it did have a return to more interesting and organic-feeling environments, despite having plenty of repetition problems of its own.
     
  6. Knucklez

    Knucklez

    PC Engine Enthusiast Member
    664
    5
    18
    I would like to see a Classic-style game for the 30th Anniversary. At this point, for me, the only competent 3D game in recent memory that I actually loved and enjoyed was Generations.

    I think it would be cool to have a Classic-style game that at the flip of a switch could have graphics interchangeable between 2D Genesis/Mania and Classic Generations. Quite an undertaking with double the work, but a refreshing way to celebrate past and present within the same game. I don't know, just give me a 2D game and I'll be interested.
     
  7. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    Member
    1,014
    234
    43
    Like I said, my post probably came off as more confrontational that intended. The same was probably true for other posts I've written in the past (not just in this thread), I'm usually poor at expressing myself through text.

    But I think I can say that I didn't jump on anyone's throat for liking or defending linear games. For instance, I didn't agree with Blue Blood about SA2 being "linearity done right", or better done than the boost games, but I didn't take issue with his view, or say anything about it; and I didn't comment on SA2 until you brought up its levels in your reply to me.

    So yeah. If I sounded like I was attacking people, it certainly wasn't my intention. Can we leave it at that?
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2021
  8. BadBehavior

    BadBehavior

    Member
    205
    49
    28
    I think modern sonic environments are restricted in the sense that the primary method developers use to make sure players stay on the path is by making the entire stage seemingly hover over a bottomless pit.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  9. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    Back on track Member
    872
    96
    28
    Bilbao, Spain
    Upgrading my own life to pro edition
    That improved in some lost world levels (and mad space?): you're gravitated to a full pipe or planetoid instead of falling to your death from the half-pipe you run on.
     
  10. Laura

    Laura

    Brightened Eyes Member
    989
    223
    43
    England
    This maybe isn't this important but I concur that the Mystic Melody was incredibly annoying to find. It was always in some esoteric place in one of the most annoying levels. It got to the point where I could predict where it was because its irritation became predictable.

    I loved City Escape as a kid (who doesn't fangirl over that stage) and it was the only level I completed all the missions in. But I couldn't find the Mystic Melody as Sonic so I tried glitching through the stage to find the Chao lol. I had a suspicion it was in the building fall section (because it was the most stupid place they would hide it) and somehow managed to glitch into the room and get the Chao so I didn't need to get the Melody :thumbsup:

    I think the Chao locations were similarly badly placed. In some esoteric hidden location which was predictable in its banality.

    I think the hidden upgrades are more justifiable in their placements actually. They are the kind of oddball items where it's kind of more acceptable to be looking in weird places. God knows what Sonic's magic hands are about though :psyduck:
     
  11. Aerosol

    Aerosol

    FML and FU2 Moderator
    10,702
    120
    43
    Not where I want to be.
    Sonic (?): Coming summer of 2055...?
    ...Today I learned people had a hard time with the Mystic Melody upgrades!
     
  12. Mana

    Mana

    Good! Great! Awesome! Outstanding! Amazing! Member
    336
    66
    28
    SA2 is linear but you don't realize how effective it is until you play a Sonic level and realize that if you know the stage well and don't die, Sonic just KEEPS running the entire stage. That feeling of an earned constant sense of speed and momentum is so satisfying and makes you want to go through the stages again and again getting better at them so you can beat them quicker and quicker.

    IMO I feel like Adventure 2 is the precursor for what Iizuka was trying to accomplish with the Boost games but only Generations REALLY did it the way Adventure 2 pulled it off. Unleashed is too based on muscle memory vs skill for me to say it completely nails why Adventure 2 and Gens stages work so well.
     
  13. I really think Generations did what SA2 tried to do, a lot better. In general I can't really think of any gameplay facet that Gens isn't superior to SA2 in, except the tank controls. It's probably why my two favorite 3D sonic games are SA1 and Gens. SA1's attempt to be the classics in 3D, which is what I've always wanted out of this series...and Gens being the peak of the 3D speedrunning style started in SA2.
    I actually found that when I used to watch sonic speedruns, I preferred SA2 over SA1 and at the time wasn't sure why, because generally I've always thought 1 had a better overall concept. Now I know why. Hadn't thought about it before.
    ....



    More specifically on topic, I think I would pass on a great 2D game if it meant I knew for sure I was getting an excellent 3D game in the vein of SA1....which again, is somewhat attempting to be the classics in 3D. Yeah, I'd pass on mania 2 for that, because it's the single videogame I've wanted since the mid 90s.

    If it's just down to another boost game or adventure remake but with the modern sensibilities, I'll take another 2D game. I wasn't really expecting Mania even when it came out, was a total shock. And when I got it was very happy. Brutal honesty though, it wasn't on my wishlist. And I'm a diehard 'classic' fan, have been with this series since the very beginning. 2D sonic peaked in 1994. To this day my favorite videogame ever. But while some fans wanted a literal sequel to 3k, I was looking for the 3D translation of that game all these years... And my voice has felt drowned out by all the whining in all sides of the fan base. I hate all of you.
    :oldbie:
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
  14. The Game Collector

    The Game Collector

    Member
    877
    5
    18
    Washington State, USA
    Being Ted Narcotic's bass player; working on Kelly Kristjanson's tape archive; collecting video games
    For the same reason, I found Sonic Advance 2 to be really fun. It was my favorite of the three on GBA to do time trials on.
     
  15. Hanging Waters

    Hanging Waters

    Member
    175
    59
    28
    US
    I'm glad the conversation has centered on "SA2 does linearity in a way that feels really, really good, and that's why I like it." It's cool to see how different people like the game for different reasons.

    On a different note, I'm kinda down to see a new 2D modern game, especially after that Dimps rumor got me thinking about it. I'd like to see the natural evolution of the Advanced formula, since the Rush/Colors DS series was kind of its own thing. Or even see if SEGA could make a good (full) 2D modern Sonic game. And I don't think we've seen a game like that on home consoles yet (Sonic 4 was a dream you had), so it would just be cool to see what kind of reception it gets.

    I think the collectathon aspects of the Advance series, like Advance 2's special rings and Advance 3's Chao/keys, could actually be done in a way that's fun and not incredibly frustrating and unforgiving. It felt like they really had a good idea there, but the execution was just so strange. If the stages are a little less labyrinthine and allow you to backtrack, there aren't 2000 collectibles per stage, and they don't unlock a special stage that's brutally challenging, I'd be down to look for collectibles and have some incentive to nail tricks or explore every part of the level to find them.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021 at 7:28 PM
  16. Beltway

    Beltway

    Temptive Bongwater, Sealed in Can Member
    1,484
    66
    28
    Sega of Darkest Peru
    college courses / anime trash crusader
    I think a new Advance would need some retooling to be more of its own type of 2D Sonic gameplay vs. the Genesis games and the Rush/Boost titles (where it sat as something of a midway point as the games went on). The secondary mechanics in particular (additional attack abilities, the team co-op abilities, etc.) I think could allow it to be refocused towards combat; especially considering the Battle spin-off that was released around that time. Taking a non-linear/Metroidvania design approach is another option, as previously mentioned the levels in Advance 3 were designed with a more labyrinthine structure in mind. The secondary abilities could also lend itself well to that type of design too.

    If nothing else, given how they were the 2D analogue to the 3D games of the era when they were released (specifically, the Adventure games and Heroes); a new Advance could lean into better emulating that role. Incorporate or retool existing elements to take after those games more; such as having hub worlds, character upgrades, and a much stronger focus on story and characters.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021 at 4:53 PM