"Multiple" new Sonic games planned for 2021

It's refreshing just to see a discussion about gameplay mechanics again. Yes, even if this is the 12 billionth time I've read the same arguments about how loops should function in 3D since 1999, it's been long enough that it's nostalgic to me! :D The past few years, it seems like a good chunk of the fandom's become so laser-focused on things like lore, characterization, setting, and whether Classic Sonic is or is not the same "person" as Modern Sonic. Other people can't tell you what to think, but they CAN tell you what to think about, and I think I've been a little too focused on aspects of the series that are tertiary to my actual enjoyment of it.

The fact of the matter is this: No matter what the story's like, no matter how the characters act, and no matter who the voice actors are, I'm really only going to engage with THAT part of the next game exactly one time, when I first play it. And whatever I think of it, after that point, for however many dozens or hundreds of replays I do, I'll skip it every time. Almost all the other constituent aspects that go into a Sonic game, the visuals, the music, the level archetypes, how it's programmed, how it FEELS, all of that matters more to me in the finished product than how Sonic ACTS, or whether Tails is "in-character." Gameplay is paramount to me. Gameplay is why this series IS my favorite series.

Which is not to say I don't have an opinion on the story or that I don't care at ALL about it. It's just really, really far down on my list of priorities. These aspects can be interesting and I do enjoy discussing them to an extent, but they're always gonna be *really* low-priority reasons for me to play a Sonic game. I think a part of the reason I've ended up feeling disconnected from the community lately is because, logically, my perspective on these issues is going to be quite different to someone who prioritizes an "immersive, consistent story" as a primary reason they're a Sonic fan. Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course! I just personally find the gameplay mechanics a lot more compelling to engage with, discuss, and think about.

 

True that, gameplay was also one of the main reasons my brother and I came to love this franchise.
Way before SA1&2 made me care about plot and lore, it was the levels/stages, OST, mechanics and emerald-hunting that filled our minds and hearts.
From time to time, there I go hear the same Classics' and Adventures' OSTs...and I still love them xD
And I love even more to read and hear about development discoveries the community does.
That's my main reason to be here, in the first place.

Nowadays, both of us much older and more focused in stuff beyond gameplay, we sometimes care about plot, cast, lore, setting, etc.
More I than my brother, truth be told xD But that's because I'm more spectator than player.

But I agree with you, @Josh, gameplay and presentation should come first place, despite my taste in stuff other than gameplay xD
And in that front, I gotta say I've been disappointed at SEGA and Sonic Team, regardless of Iizuka's good intentions and efforts.

 

Also can we please, PLEASE get online multi-player finally? I want to race other people I don't give a rats ass about Time Trials, especially because hackers destroy them within the first 3 weeks. And only the 2010 era portable Dimps outings had online multi-player for some reason and it was good! Like if I could play online vs in Generations or Mania that'd of added hours of gameplay from me (I know Mania has workarounds and mods on the PC version but... eh it's not the same)

 

I mean, it's a lot easier to talk about characters you like and their favorite moments versus talking in depth about gameplay mechanics, something only people with deep knowledge of the games would get.

 

Of course they disagree, because we've spent 20 years trying to chase the glory this series we had in the 90's, instead of just accepting that time period is over and behind us.

I keep saying that the Sonic fanbase reminds me of the Star Wars fanbase in how overly elitist it is over their preferences for the franchise. It really highlights the image of the stereotypical nerd who lives in their mother's basement while typing up about every inconsistency and error while talking up how they could do a better job.

Its a shitshow.

 

It's a little more complicated than that for me. When I replay Adventure 1 and 2 you bet I am watching those ridiculous cutscenes again . That's not entirely an insult either, I do think those games have good stories ironically and unironically. I think you can't play/watch something over and over and over unless there is something substantial there you really like.

I think a good Sonic story can complement or hurt a game. The worst thing about Mania is its nonsensical plot. Sonic 2's climax wouldn't be as good without the logical build up of Sky Chase-Wing Fortress-Death Egg and Sonic 3's wouldn't be as good without the Knuckles rivalry, as silly as those stories are.

So I agree with you that fans have spent probably too long going on and on about how Tails is too weak and Shadow needs to come back or something. We probably should spend more time talking about game design. But I don't think story is a one street throwaway inclusion either.

But yeah, a bland game isn't going to be saved by an entertaining story (ironically or genuinely). I'm not going to buy Forces because of its so bad it's good story.

To be fair, Sonic fans aren't raging about how there are too many female characters who are ruining everything. If anything they are so obsessed with multiple characters they'd probably rejoice if a new game came out with playable Blaze and Amy, haha

Sorry I tried to combine these posts but the forums freaked out!

 

The problem with this argument IMO is that when you look at the competing 3D platforming games in 2017 priced at $40, they were still providing more value and/or better quality than what Forces was offering. The Crash N-Sane Trilogy was $40. Knack II was $40. Indie games like Yooka-Laylee and A Hat in Time were $40 or less. All of them got markedly better metascores/reviews than Forces, and sold better too I imagine. (Though part of this also has to do with the odd trend of making 3D platformers $40 now instead of $60, which everybody but Nintendo has since jumped on.)

If your game does not have good game design and/or smart content use to back it up, a reduced project scope and budget can only give your game cover for so long. Forces I think had more in common with those those $20 budget games that turn up at value stores than any of the $40 mid-range "AA" games I just listed. Maybe we can compromise and peg it as a higher-end $30 budget game.

 

Hell, there are $20 downloadable games with more polish than that, even from SEGA themselves... budget definitely =/= quality.

 

I think Sonic fans bigger focus on story is because of how the industry has evolved. Games have far more involved narratives nowadays, so people want that for Sonic, especially since that's what we were getting back then.

Sure, the depth of gameplay goes over many fan's head and that's an issue, but I don't think its wrong for them to focus mainly on the narrative either.

But yea, I'd much rather talk about gameplay at this point.


To move this back; yea loops in 3D don't really the work the same as they do in 2D. But since they're a Sonic staple, they're added as an obligation.

I do agree that they're mostly setpieces in both dimensions, but in 2D you have more control over how to get through them as opposed to just being automated. But I don't think the solution is to just swing the camera along with Sonic through a loop in 3D, and as mentioned, in 3D you could literally just jump through them.

 

When it comes to loops, I feel like you generally don't have a ton of control over them, even in 2D. I don't think being a setpiece makes them worth dropping - I'd much rather have them than not have them in 2D. Not being relegated to a scripted event means you can choose to vary the way you interact with them. As said before, you can do loop boosts in the classic games which are very satisfying and provide a little bit more depth to them. Put me in the camp of people that doesn't REALLY mind too much if loops are semi-scripted setpieces that last 1-2 seconds out of the entire level (like in Emerald Coast), just like I don't mind when you're blazing down a slope in Chemical Plant and the game sends you through 2-3 loops for free with no reason to do much while its happening. Sure, you can stop and you can slow down, but you have no incentive to do so. That's why it is ostensibly the same to me as a BRIEF loop in 3D.

I think you can do this once or twice and not have the level be overrun by scripted segments; then again I don't think it ever feels as exhilerating in 3D - even as a setpiece - because I don't get to think wow look I built up speed on that ramp and now im doin loops and shit woohoo. But what I think we tend to gloss over is that - while scripted automation will never be as interactive as physically going through the loop - loops nowadays are not the extremely brief half-second setpieces they were in the classic 2D games. They can last 5+ seconds with how big they are and how much cinematic focus they demand. The first 3D loop in Emerald Coast still comes in at less than one second. It's not like I have a lot of fun watching it happen, but it's there for the blink of an eye, so it's hard to be upset.

What I think is interesting about loops is that they're one of the only setpieces in a 2D Sonic game that can't be set along a 2D plane in 3D. 2D loops make use of layers to change the loop's collision while Sonic is actively moving through them, but in 3D a loop physically cannot go through itself. Translating a loop literally from 2D to 3D would require you to make a loop that overlaps itself, and then have the player character go up the loop and run straight through that intersecting section of the loop's wall, just trusting that they won't collide with it. And that would be pretty ugly. I mention this because it explains why - in 3D - the course of the loop is always angled, which is something I kinda like about 3D fangames. It was genuinely kind of challenging for me to get through loops in some 3D fangames because of the slight angle at which you have to run through them, which I think is kind of fun.

 

On the topic of loops in 3D. I do think if we're talking automation/scripting, they're one of the exceptions where having some in effect does make sense. I suppose it would be cool if you could truly use your own controls/physics to run/roll through them, but I can't imagine it would be all that much fun but for the most experienced players, due to requiring your full input for 3D controls/physics. A lot of fangames have demonstrated this where you attempt to go through a loop, but you end up flying out of the loop instead of properly circling through. The other thing is that loops are also typically much bigger for the 3D games too, so using your own controls/physics to carry yourself through them isn't all that feasible. Sonic 2006 (IIRC) also introduced the "corkscrew" loops (namely in Wave Ocean) where the loop was longer in length and wider in width to prevent the "just jump through it to skip it" issue...of course, that made it more of a "do or die" design since the loop spanned an entire body of instant death water.

I'm among those that doesn't really know what to think. My default mindset would be to leave them as more of a staple of 2D games and have them as an uncommon/rare occurrence for the 3D stuff. It makes them being pure spectacle/automation there a easier pill to swallow. That's even how it was for Sonic 3D: Flickies' Island, where loops were a scarce scripted sequence that only took you from one playfield area to another. (Kinda like the clear pipes in Mario 3D World, tbh.)

But I do think you can have some balancing of player input/automation for loops as well. I personally liked how Sonic R handled it, where once you started running up a loop, the automation would lock you through the whole sequence; but you could still move left and right through the loop the whole time. That was useful for changing positions on the track, or trying to get all of the rings (which were placed in columns throughout). That one does have the issue of being able to jump through it too, though--but hey, kinda forgive it since it's a racing game. (You could probably also design them so either there's a barrier in-between to prevent jumping through loops, or have the loop entrance start earlier so you can't get close enough to jump through.) I also liked how Heroes had those fancy three-lane "Cerberus" loops where you entered one out of three lanes, and each one had a different bubble of powerups/rings to get. Those by comparison are full automation/setpiece, but you get some choice there.

Besides changing the player input/automation, I would also like to see some exploration elements factored into loops. A very easy way to do this I think would have the corkscrew loop, but the route split into two just before it, where you could either run through the loop and get to one route, or take the other route that runs underneath the loop (or goes through it, or avoid it entirely, etc.) and head off into another route. Another approach would having an alternate route start within the loop, ex. there's a point where if you press A to jump or whatever at the right moment while running through, you jump off and land onto a suspended rail in-between the loop and start grinding. (That would probably work better with the loops set at camera angles, than showing you actually running through.) Or take the "Cerberus" loops and have the lanes indeed split towards different paths. Seaside Hill in Generations had something like this, with the cycling kart segment/giant turtle roulette choices.

 

Forces is $15 at my Walmart now and I'm still not interested in paying for it.

Also I've said it before, but I think the City Trials part of Kirby Air Ride: A big overworld with things happening and fun missions, but then when the game happens, the powerups you get can be brought into it. Something like that could be fun with an engine like Sonic Utopia. It would give us traditional Sonic levels, but also encourage exploration and gaining momentum in the overworld.

I like this idea for loops. Like make them unscripted but if you don't successfully clear the loop, you just go to a lower path. This way the loop is a mechanic and you have to get good at it if you want to get good at the game, but it isn't necessary to finish the level or have fun.

 

I don't really care.

What I know is that I find things like Sonic GT and Spark 2 more fun control-wise than any of the official 3D Sonic games. Going "but they're bad because X Y Z" doesn't mean anything to me. I am no going to just give up and go "oh, you're right, my experiences were wrong. Clearly I wasn't enjoying the hours I pored over Sonic GT having fun!".

Like, when the response to me bringing up these things is literally "No, those are bad, you're literally just too stupid to realize that they suck like all the dumb modern Sonic fans" like yes, I am going to be quite aggressively annoyed and defensive about that.

Because we all heard that from non-Sonic fans about the genesis games. The arguments were exactly the same. "This thing you like is bad because it's not like the other games in its genre". You just substitute "it's bad because you can't see where you're going and you just get hit by stuff you can't see" with "it's bad because you go too fast and the levels are too big". Literally the exact same argument of "you're just a dumb Sonic fan who can't see the objective flaws in the thing you like", except now it's coming from inside the fandom!

Sigh.

I just want to go fast and have fun with physics, man. That's all I want.

 

I don't think you'd get as much pushback if you weren't so insistent on assuming that your opinion is more objective than anyone else's. Half of your posts in this thread can generally be summed as "This thing you likes sucks, and I'm gonna tell you why the thing I like is superior" and absolutely nobody wants to read that at all, it is obnoxious.

Everyone has a different reason for liking this series and should be respected regardless of how you feel about it, because constantly talking down to someone over your preferences is annoying and doesn't actually accomplish anything beyond being a shit-flinging contest.

Some people wanna GO FAST, some people wanna play a platformer. Some people wanna abuse physics and level geometry, others just want something simple and to the point. There's no wrong way to enjoy this series.

 

Don’t go blaming me for getting upset at what I think makes a Sonic game work when I preface it’s my thoughts and you tout your opinions like they’re on a higher plane of understanding, Frostav.

It doesn’t really help when people have valid criticisms and comments about the ideas you’re presenting and you brush it off as people being haters who don’t want to see the “truth” or whatever. Funnier yet you’re decrying how you think people respond to you and yet do the same to anyone going to bat for gameplay styles you don’t like.

Telling on yourself a bit with how you seem to think internet discussion is to go, aye.

 

Y'know, maybe this is a bit of a tangent, but:

Given that Sonic became THE posterchild for a series that lost its way when it hit the "polygon ceiling," it's kind of a miracle that we're still getting 3D Sonic games at all. Most other 80s-90s sidescrollers that once made the jump to 3D (your Donkey Kongs, Castlevanias, Raymans, Mega Mans, and the like) jumped right back to 2D once 3D was no longer the default expectation of what a console game HAD to be. Meanwhile, many platformers born in 3D (your Spyros, Banjos, Jak & Daxters, and Slys Cooper) haven't had an original new release in ages.

 

I feel like that's a sign they've been doing something right this whole time.

 

Some of what Frostav said came off as very brash and elitist, but some of it initially was just "I don't like this game as much because it doesn't have x feature", to which certain people have repeatedly responded that it's "over our heads", or that nobody else "sees the depth".

I don't think either side is right in this debate lol, how hard is it to just drop any and all comments that assume you are seeing something nobody else does, or that the way you view the games mechanically is objectively the most comprehensive way.

Hmm doesn't seem like a tangent, it's interesting when you point it out. Even Mario still has a lot of 2D outings. It's strange that Sonic seemed to stick to 3D, only doing some 2D stuff for a hot second or relegating 2D titles to lower budget handheld ports. Perhaps it's because the Adventure series actually did pretty dang well, and when they tried something new with Unleashed it also did pretty dang well. They've had a lot of success with 3D Sonic and they probably don't wanna give that up to go back to 2D.

Sorry for double post I had this thought afterward, but I think a big part of modern Sonic's success is also his appeal as a character and as a brand. His character design is still top notch. He's adapted a few times to fit the trends of the time, like when they first introduced modern Sonic. He's become sort of a meme with his edginess and over-confident attitude, but I think many people find that charming.

 

It's because Sonic, as a concept, is just universally popular and can be adapted into numerous ways. Most of the contemporary platformers of the late 90's, and 2000's couldn't touch the mainstream market the way that Mario & Sonic could. Which is probably why Sega feel pressured in making 3D games, since those are considered the standard nowadays and much more wider appeal than 2D games do.

People call Sonic a relic of the 90's, but he literally just had a successful movie release last year. Now compare that to Mega Man who, before Mega Man 11, didn't have a single title or entry for almost the entirety of the 2010's, outside of a low budget CG show that came and went.

Nobody is going to argue that Sega have mishandled this brand, but it's plain as day that people still love Sonic despite that. If people didn't like Sonic, he would have faded into obscurity ages ago, but he's still around and kicking. That's why I said that there's no wrong way to enjoy these games, because there's different things to love about Sonic.


Someone said it best; Sonic is heavily flawed as a series, and in a lot of cases, isn't even all that good (even the classic games) but it works. For some reason another, even when this franchise underperforms, it still manages to stay within the public consciousness.

 

I don't wanna go digging to find it, but waaaaay back in this thread I said something along the lines of "... and realize not everyone is out to hate on their favorite piece of media".

Something I try to live by that most people I've met and talk to don't is... people aren't inherently evil. Shocking, I know O.O I always give people the benefit of the doubt irl and online, and it's helped me to establish great friendships and relationships with people, because, unlike most humans in society, I don't automatically assume that everyone is trying to harm me, or everyone is trying to hurt my feelings like a school bully, or even that everyone is trying to justify why I can't like what I like.

Yes, there are people out there who will go out of their way to bully you and try to invalidate your experiences (we've seen a few of these types in here already, not listing names though lol), but it's important to realize that communication can be hard, especially online, and I'm gonna say that probably 70% of the posts on here that got people mad probably weren't even posted with malicious intent.

As has been said before, this is a kids franchise. It is completely and utterly pointless to argue about it like it somehow matters in the cosmic scheme of things. Sure, debates are great, and get everyone together to discuss an important topic, like we've already seen, but resorting to name calling, gaslighting, and (as I said) assuming people are just here to get in your way and nothing else does nothing to help these threads, the fanbase, or the franchise as a whole.

Most of us are grown adults and aren't here to deliberately bully you (key word, most). Lighten up- please. :/