Heroes Amy was by far Amy at her worst. A total regression into a creepily obsessive one-note that I think is mainly why she's sometimes seen as bad representation. SHTH's guns are kinda fun in of themselves with their variety and hilarious lack of edgy realism the more you find. It's the slow, spongey enemies you have to stop for over and over again that make the whole thing not so fun. The game should've moreso emphasized firing while moving with a greater quantity of weaker enemies. Just imagine bullet-carving a path through an army of grunt aliens like a playable version of that 06 cutscene. That would require the game to have been unironically cool or technically impressive though.
Hard disagree and in my experience, claiming she is at her worst in heroes always seem,s to boil down to people remembering Sonic Paradox's Metropolis Mayhem instead of the actual game and presenting her line in the cutscene to the battle boss fight vs Team Sonic as her whole character. Amy in Heroes was the natural, logical progression of her character, helping Cream and Big find their lost buddies and reunite them, much like she did Birdie in SA1, except now she is able to stand on her own and lead her own squad, thus making big on her claims from Sonic Adventure 1. She fights to both help them and prove herself to and impress Sonic and proves to be a competent force against Eggman in her own Adventure even without Sonic to carry her. She also shows her strength in leadership and encouraging her teammates when they start to lose their nerve and become scared or demotivated in their search. It's unfortunate in my eyes that kinda contrived character battle dialogue (a trait not even unique to Team Rose in that game) is then used to dismiss her entire portrayal. Amy in Heroes had confidence and attitude and was able to back it up. It was satisfying. How about this then. The Deadly Six are fine villains stuck in a lame game.
Well uh first of all I haven't even seen that video so...no. Team Rose's cutscene in Casino Park has her saying she "needs to find Eggman to find MY Sonic" and her story literally ends with her chasing him down. I feel you're being overly generous just because her two friends have more selfless motivations. And even if you were right, her doing the same thing she did in SA1 isn't "progression", it's just the same thing. IMO her helping a random bird is more selfless than her helping her pre-established friends anyway. I can be interpretive too and say she's actually at her best in Advance 1 where she's literally alone, has a motivation completely divorced from Sonic, and is by far the most acrobatic, combat-efficient character.
Silver honestly deserves another chance at being a major character. It wasn't uncommon in that time period for games to introduce successor characters like Raiden (Who Silver used to share a VA with hilariously) or Nero, and while they initially had divisive receptions too with their fanbase, they ultimately got their redemption eventually when they starred in critically acclaimed games. Silver deserves that same recognition, let him earn his spot on the same pedestal that Sonic and Shadow enjoy.
Perhaps you haven't seen said video, however, it's where this idea Amy didn't care about helping Cream and Big comes from and the talking points have been repeated enough that I'd surprises me little that someone would also repeat it without having watched the video at all. I have to insist on the opposite here. Yes Amy obviously likes and wants to find Sonic. No one said otherwise, but presenting these 2 bits as the sum and large of her motive and character in the game is, again, disingenuous. Especially without the wider context. For starters, the last scene where she chases Sonic in her story only happens after Cream reminds her about it and points out Sonic is in the area. Her priority and focus in that scene was very clearly getting Chocola and Froggy and celebrating them being reunited with Cream and Big. In the opening cutscene, Amy is cheering Cream and Big upo ensuring them they will find em. In the cutscene after the Rail Canyon Boss, she is again, assessing the situation concluding Eggman must be responsible for their kidnapping and telling them she won't let him get away with it. Boss Fight in Hang Castle is her calling Eggman out on doing just that, etc If the idea is Amy having any outward interest or motivation to find Sonic is inherently bad and is grounds to throw her character in a dumpster, (which to me is simply ridiculous) I don't see how someone looks at Amy in Heroes as a whole and concludes it somehow ruined her character when it very much is a step up and progression from her arc and mission statement in the previous Adventure games. Calling what I described in Heroes as "interpretative" is frankly ridiculous and borders a bit on insulting to be honest. I'm not being vague describing what happens in the game. I'm describing what actually happens and what is stated to have happened as opposed to taking a game with basically no story and pretending it's evident were something they weren't based on an absence of dialogue. For starters, the idea Amy in Advance 1 has nothing to do with Sonic is simply untrue as she is participating in stopping Eggman alongside Sonic and crew in Advance 1. Fite me <3
What does Amy say or do to indicate she cares more about reuniting her friends with their pets than being with Sonic? I'm rewatching her cutscenes right now and I just heard "It's your fault Sonic and I aren't together" before Egg Emperor. Doesn't seem like she's very mad at Eggman over Chocola to me. How did she progress by regressing back to her CD personality of fawning over Sonic? Especially after the Adventure games where she comes into her own as a heroine with separate but distinct abilities and motivations separate from Sonic.
Amy starts the game taking Cream and Big under her wing in order to help them. In the game's manual, it states she found them at the post office and offered to help them find Chocola and Froggy when she noticed the newspaper clue they have shows Sonic with them. She has no need or obligation to do so in order to find Sonic. How they find him in thanks to her sense for him to begin with. She puts a disproportionate amount of energy into supporting them in getting them back and the story mode ends with them being freed from "Eggman" with them celebrating, again with Amy having to be reminded of and pointed at the fact Sonic was within range of where they were as a form of karmic reward. Even the character fight itself, Amy's in-battle dialogue is about Chocola and Froggy rather than Sonic. That said, it shouldn't even matter because it's a false dichotomy. Both her interest in finding Sonic and goal of finding Chocola and Froggy are aligned, as their clue in the beginning shows Sonic has Chocola and Froggy to start. Presenting these as competing points of interest is illogical from the outset for this reason, but regardless it's clear she prioritizes helping them rather than ditching em or something like dead weight to go off and get Sonic herself rather than tending to her team's self esteem and making sure everyone comes out happily ever after. All that said, what does she say or do to indicate she barely cares about finding Chocola and Froggy and is predominantly concerned about finding Sonic to the expense of finding their friends? It's incumbent on you to support this assertion since you made it, not for me to disprove it. Such is the nature of the concept of the burden of proof. The dichotomy in general is weird to me as it requires starting from a position of bad faith. So far, your arguments have been reliant on simply pointing out Amy showing any open affection or motivation related to Sonic in any capacity, which makes little sense. Especially when ignoring all the times she makes statements that are wholly related to Chocola and Froggy and helping her friends that frankly make up much more of her screen time. How is this really contradicted in Heroes? In SA1, her goal was to prove herself as a capable heroine rather than a burden to Sonic. She wants to show him she is an asset rather than a dead weight. This is immediately exemplified in SA2 where she goes to Prison Island to save Sonic and free him. I am so incredibly confused how you view Amy talking DOWN to Eggman and fights him head on with confidence is somehow a regression to CD where she was a helpless damsel that simply made Sonic's goal more complicated by being a hostage. It's as of you somehow convinced yourself Amy's flaw in CD was loving Sonic in any capacity which obviously isn't the case. Her affection for him motivated her to become a hero.
She became interested in said newspaper because she wanted to find Sonic. Cream and Big are literally required for her to even just get to Grand Metropolis and obviously Cream and Big need a reason to go on an exhausting adventure with her so she agrees to help them out with their goals. This is just her helping her friends to help her, not selflessness. She never even had a connection to Cream or Big in the prior games. And her "karmic reward" at the end is that she gets to sexually assault Sonic? Yeah that's bad. Even ignoring the creepiness, her story literally ends on a shot of her doing the same exact thing she does in Collision Chaos. I think that speaks for itself. I am confused as to why you see Amy beating Eggman in Advance 1 as just "helping Sonic out" but then act like her beating Eggman in Heroes is character growth and proving herself to Sonic despite the fact that he literally doesn't care and the fact that she already did that in Advance 1 and 2.
Based on what exactly? You sure you aren't just going off of Metropolis Mayhem? Because the talking point here makes no sense outside of it. By Rail Canyon, Amy even forgoes looking for Sonic primarily for but Eggman instead because as I mentioned, she believes he is responsible for taking Chocola and Froggy. I dunno what malchieavalian version of Amy you know or are pulling from to make her helping them out to be self serving, but nothing in the actual game presents it as anything of the sort. The story very much presents it as Amy being the one carrying them around and raising their spirits because she is a good person as opposed to her needing them for anything. It comes off like the most contrived intentional way of choosing to view her actions in the most uncharitable way possible Not sure why this matters? Again, I ask, what malchieavalian version of Amy you're pulling from because Amy has never been the type to have quarlms helping people she just met. It's, again, just like how she was with Birdie in SA1. .....Okay I think I've had my fill of this conversation. Something is very wrong when the person accusing me of being "interpretive" is making sexual assault accusations about a cartoon character chasing after another in a kids game... it's disrespectful to the subject of sexual assault to treat it so flippantly to "win" silly internect arguments. The rest of your post is arguing against things I never even said. I didn't describe Advance 1 as "just helping out". I simply said your description of her going off on her own doing something divorced from Sonic is false. Saying Amy regressed because she chased Sonic to hug him in Collision Chaos and is chasing him at the end of Heroes is silly. It'd be like me saying Sonic regressed in Heroes because he has Tails fly him like in Marble Garden... It has nothing to do with the growth of the character. Also, Amy isn't even in the story of Advance 2... Nor is there anything to suggest Sonic sees her as a competent individual in Advance 1.... I haven't the foggiest clue why you feel the it needed to be so imbalanced and inflammatory in regards to this topic, but if its to continue, I'd rather it not.
Heroes is definitely a regression for Amy's character. She's not completely selfish, she's genuine about helping her friends. But her crush on Sonic is exaggerated for comedy and to justify a stupid fight.
I still find it illogical to throw all of Amy's progress as a character in a bin by taking a single line of dialogue the least charitable way possible in obligatory boss fights that are contrived for everyone as opposed to just Team Rose. It'd be like saying Rouge regressed because she picks a fight with Team Chaotix for literally no reason. That said, I appreciate this notion Amy was somehow "using" Cream and Big as opposed to doing what she did because she wanted to help them being contested. That notion is frankly nuts. Amy in Heroes is kickin' ass on her own adventure just like she said she would in SA1, and is taking the fight to Eggman without needing Sonic's help or him to come to her rescue like in the previous 2 games. 3 If you wanna lump CD in there. She shows she can be a good leader in her own Amy way of doing it. She shows she is much more capable and confident compared to past games. and she still shows she has a good heart and will help those in need even if they aren't part of the "bigger picture". And unlike in past games, she is shown to even give Sonic enough pause to sweat when she encounters him where he was more just confused and/or annoyed in the past. She's clearly progressed in terms of being a more confident, independant and capable individual in Heroes and I can't bring myself to call that a regression.
Heroes really wasn't interested in telling a story or building on any prior character arcs, so it's really hard to say it "progresses" Amy's character that much. But I do think its a bit hyperbolic to say she was "using" Cream and Big and that Sonic was her only concern.
I'm saying Heroes' story is so basic and its characterizations so shallow that it's not exactly clear if Amy would have even helped Cream or Big out without knowing she'd find Sonic that way. Maybe that's just an opinion but so is insisting Chocola is her primary motivation.
Heroes was obviously a gameplay first game, but it wasn't completely disconcerned with telling a story either. Sonic and Knuckles are more cool with each other in heroes, there is all that business with Shadow, the whole reason Chocola and Froggy went kidnapped was because of Metal Sonic whom also has his story motivation for everything he does, etc. It's more a question of prioritization more so than not even trying or caring. Really what signals the sense of progress to me more than anything is how much more confident and assertive Amy is. She very much isn't the girl that got easily discouraged or immediately ran for someone else's help or expected others to delegate to her what she needed to do to get something done. She has a very apparent sense of initiative that she carries forward into the series from Heroes onward. Something the manual even outlines. I didn't say she doesn't care about finding Sonic and only cared about finding Chocola and Froggy. I said yes she cares about both and there is 0 reason to read it as her not caring about them finding Chocola and Froggy and simply using them or doing so incidentally as opposed to genuinely wanting to help em because she is a good person. So far, you haven't presented any reason to believe or insist she wouldn't help them otherwise or wouldn't have helped them had she not also wanted to find Sonic already. The game isn't vague or unclear about it unless you go in with a weird presumption of her motivation going into the game that she doesn't or worldn't. One that is not supported by her characterization of motives in the previous entries or the game proper. Or even subsequent material for the matter as later material refers to her helping them find Chocola and Froggy primarily.
I think Heroes was Sonic Team trying to make a game to cater to the crowd that missed simpler stories and things like more abstract locations and it did result in a sort of flanderization in some aspects of a lot of the characters while also weirdly aknowledging the past games. It's quite messy. I'd say SA3, Battle, Shadow and 06 are when they really advance from where we left off in SA2.
