The Sonic the Hedgehog 4 Megathread

Right, I forgot about that. On the models, they're drawn very, very badly. (Maybe it looks better if they were sized up but... it's really inconsistent either way.) But there are some other things that I've noticed with the sprites that make me think they aren't all hand-drawn, even with Sonic, the main one being an inconsistent pixel placement / color on some parts of the character.

For example, on Tails' models, he has a glare, but on his rehashed sprites from Sonic 2 and the ones they added for Sonic 3 (There are sprites they added, like swimming) he doesn't. It's also like that with Sonic, though he always has a glare, he has other differences, like his eyes, which appear a little misshapen in the 3-D sprites.

Of course, there are others, but they're really not that big an issue and harder to describe / point out with Sonic since his sprites were redesigned completely and Tails' were just rehashed / photoshopped (or whatever they had back then for image editing) / hastily modeled.

(It's from Unleashed) I know I'm late, but I thought it was said elsewhere the thing was from Unleashed, I knew it was before I even read his post, so I thought it was common knowledge.

Respectable? What do you consider respectable? They've been playing it safe the entire time... They aren't even trying because they've already taken a big risk by calling this Sonic 4 and now they can't back out of it once they realized what the fans expected of that name wasn't what they're getting, at least not all at once, and for some, not at all.

If you're saying it's mostly opinion-based, then that can be true to an extent. There are some games that have undeniable good music, though, even if the people rating don't agree it's good music. This game doesn't have that. It has hit-or-miss because some people like some of the music and hate other music for the same reason other people hate the music they like. Because it's dull, generic and repetitive and it sounds like it came from some aspiring college musician composed as an FL experiment. It sounds like it came off a bad Flash game, not something a developer that's paid to do good work composed.

It was acceptable back then to use computerized instruments because that was the best they could do. And even then they actually tried. Now it sounds like they were trying harder to capture the sounds of outdated instruments more than trying to compose music that fit the scene. I'm sure everyone would be pleased if they managed to use the same flow and creativity of the old music with a little techno twist on it than if they produced what they did.

^ That. And if it weren't for those people, we probably wouldn't have such a terrible franchise now. The main reason I'm so upset Tails isn't even in Ep. 1 is because he hasn't had a major role in any of the modern games. He stopped being fully playable in Advanced 3. Shadow? He was a buddy, big deal. Same deal with '06, and he was a story character in Unleashed, SatSR, Black Knight and Rush 1 and 2. Hell, he wasn't even that big in Black Knight, they just mashed him in there as a cameo! Even the amount of fan games don't have hardly any of him, and it's very frustrating, especially since his game-play of Adventure 2 and Heroes was a big disappointment, and having to earn him in Advanced 2, especially since Cream all but overshadowed him, was just bullshit. I haven't even bought a Sonic game since '06, with the exception of renting SatSR and borrowing Rush. Especially after Black Knight's middle finger to Tails fans that basically said to me "HA! He's not important anymore so fuck you!" so I've been waiting a long time for something like this, and when they finally release something that makes me think "Ooh! Sonic 3 game-play except better!" they do this with episode 1, and I come to find out, it's the sickening retard-to-reasonable ratio in this fanbase who would go so far to say one of the highlights of the classics is the cause of the modern downfall. I think they need to go back and play Sonic's 1-Knuckles (including CD) and then try saying adding characters killed Sonic, because those classics added a new character every damn game. Hell, CD added two! They weren't playable for obvious reasons, but they were added, and that was acceptable.

What I've found by talking to that sid of the fandom is that they don't stop to think about why they don't like the characters, because they're all too busy being extremists about it with the "All or none" crap that led to Unleashed and SatSR's suckage.

So, you don't think it's logical to say the game looks cheaply made, and that whoever was making it was only concerned with money? What else could you draw from that conclusion then? That they didn't have the budget? Doubtful. That the team is just incompetent? Likely, but that's not really any better. Can you draw any good conclusions from what you've seen?

Why are you bringing the U.S. Government in on this discussion? :specialed:

Serious: I think that only focusing on capitalism is... Well, it's dirty. I do believe there are still game devs that actually give a shit about their work. Hell, it took Level 5 2 years to bring WKC to America because they wanted good English voice actors, not the usual bad ones anime / Jap merch is notorious for. And that's just one example. I believe this should be an example for all companies to follow, or if they really don't care, and are only interested in being "pigs and devils" they could at least make it look like they care, or do a better job of it than SEGA does.

Yes, and my reluctance to play it again is why I haven't got all the artwork unlocked from Sonic Gems. I never said I didn't think CD was a rehash, .it's a rehash of Sonic 1's engine, except slightly less buggy and just as annoying and difficult.

I'd actually prefer them to use the models from Heroes or Adventure, without the latex skin, mouths on the sides of the faces or Tails' piss yellow fur. (If they're using Unleashed models, I can't imagine Tails and Knuckles will look bvery good. Tails was so bad looking in Unleashed, it looked like his '06 model...)

Genesis music was more complex and longer than the music I heard.

It's one of the main reasons it looks like they didn't even try.

One of the biggest appeals to Genesis graphics for me is that they manage to execute some pretty creative gradient detail with a limited pallet. There's no reason why they can't do the same damn thing with a 2 million color pallet, yet all they're using is whites and blacks, or lighter shades of the colors they're already using. It's disappointing to someone who's looked closely at the sprites and art and even learned to color mainly through Sonic style. The models are the same now, which contributes to their blandness and my usual grievance of Tails being piss yellow, along with less obvious problems with the models that can all be blamed on how a model can be colored with a single color now and the light-source does the shading, usually resulting in a very bland gradient effect that goes from black to white in an attempt to be 'realistic' which just doesn't work well for Sonic.

Or they could, y'know, not use the ones from Sonic 1. Oh but those are easy peasy o implement since no new sprites need to be rendered and they can just use the jumping animation. Why not just force us to have 50 rings at the end of the level as a final middle finger to those of us who thought Sonic 3's emerald system worked just fine?

At least they were fun and added to the levels in Sonic 2 and 3. In Sonic 1 it was just "Make it to the end with 50 rings and hit the big ring before it's too late! Now suffer a headache that was our shitty special stages nobody could complete. :specialed:"

 

The Unleashed model is probably the best 3D Sonic model to date. It's certainly not "bad", not by any standards.

Have you even played Unleashed, or have you just read the "reviews"?

This again? The Sonic CD physics engine is more advanced than the Sonic 2 engine you oh-so-love, and definitely much less annoying, especially where loops are concerned.

This again? We get it, you don't like Sonic 1's special stages. But, y'know, it's pretty much only you that can't complete them. I think I can speak on behalf of most of Sonic Retro when I say they're easier than Sonic 2's.

 

Uh, how is that different from "Make it to a checkpoint with 50 rings and hit the sparkles before it's too late!", for example?

Also, the Sonic 1 special stages are pretty fun if you ask me. Infact I find them the easiest of the 3, almost relaxing quality to them. I really have no idea what you're on about to be honest.

Oh, and yeah, implementing a special stage that utilises motion control, which lets face it, is it's hook (sadly for 360 gamers....) is really easy peasy.... now true lazyness would have been to do it exactly as it was in Sonic 1.

Anyway, I bet the Special Stages in future episodes homage later special stages in games.

 

(I was referring to the "badly" comment, not what it came from.) It was common observation that it looked very close to the Unleashed model, but I wouldn't have called that "knowledge" until someone compared the models firsthand.

By "respectable" I mean they got the visual style down fairly well in terms of how levels look. Maybe not perfectly (and I admit I'm not particularly fond of some of the aesthetic aspects of Splash Hill Zone), but respectably well. It looks very much as a 2D Sonic game should, even if it could have been done a lot better were they more ambitious with the project.

I'm actually just making the observation that nobody seems to have a clear fix on where the strong points and weak points actually are. That in itself is very telling as to how patchy the soundtrack really is, relatively speaking.

Unleashed and Secret Rings's downfalls had nothing to do with lack of characters. Their issues were in the gameplay elements that dragged them down.

I think it's logical to allow for the possibility of multiple scenarios. The situation behind the scenes may have been more complex than you think. Primarily, I think it best not to attempt drawing conclusions at all, and just focus on the objective facts of the game that gets produced.

Fair enough. This being said, I can't help but think ideas within the company regarding where the Sonic franchise should be headed are somewhat conflicted at the moment, so I think it's not so much that they don't care, as it is that they're not wholly convinced this is a good direction. As crazy as that sounds surrounded by people who actually want this, but then, SEGA executives and developers aren't necessarily on the same wavelength as people like us, so if there's a failure to recognize the obvious, it's actually not hard to imagine why that failure exists.

Difficult? Annoying, maybe, but I'd call it the easiest game in the series.

Those models are outdated. Especially the Adventure ones. And personally, the Heroes model struck me as a bit too disproportionately big-headed. As for Knuckles, there was no Unleashed model for him at all, so they kind of have to make him a new one anyway if he's even showing up in this sub-series. I don't think Tails looked bad, but to each their own, I guess.

Complex, yes. As for "longer," it depends on which game you're referring to.

Yes, I get the sentiment you're trying to convey, but like I said, the only one that fits your description is Splash Hill, so I'm not seeing a problem. If it were a running theme throughout all of the levels, I might agree, but as it's not, I'm thinking it's more just an aspect of their take on the Green Hill trope.

Mainly... whites and blacks...?

...

I still don't follow. And you seriously see the shading on the models as an attempt to be realistic? To me it looks more like an attempt to look cartoony—has a kind of cell-shading-like quality.

After those fucktacular Special Stages in Advance 1, I'd rather they not get creative with that aspect as long as DIMPs is involved. They've proven adept at designing bosses, but have also proven that they can devise some awesomely bad Special Stage systems.

Why not? Some of us think Sonic 1's system worked just fine, too.

Another thing to consider is that they may be changing that aspect up between episodes as well. It's another thing I think we need to wait on before pronouncing final judgment. Besides, with manually-controlled stages and lack of R, Up, and Down blocks constantly screwing up your game, the Special Stage system is already bound to feel like a wholly different kind of gameplay than in Sonic 1, and probably a more entertaining one, or at least a less-annoying one.

With exception to Special Stage #3 (Codename: HELL), they were actually pretty easy despite their annoying aspects, I think.

 

Yeah, admittedly that's a poor example. I'd actually argue Donkey Kong Country looks better in a lot of places due to making the tiles less conspicuous.

I was more stressing the fact that despite being rendered in 3D, you still notice the perspective doesn't change at all when the objects scroll, making everything look flat. When the old games seemed to by copying 3D in a effort to not look flat and this one does, something seems wrong.

 

Hey...I just thought of something....

This is aimed at the "haters"

You all think this game is a steaming pile of shit, or at least looks like it, right?
A remember a few of you mentioning, that this "abomination" of a game will give the classics a bad name, right?

Well, I think most "ordinary" people (people who don't go on Sonic Forums on a regular basis) will find that Sonic 4 is a good game.
They'll then realise that this is No. 4. They'll be confused about the location of the first three.
Searching for the first 3 in hopes that they will be "as good as" the 4th, they'll stumble across the Classics.
They'll play the classics. Then they'll realise that the classics were vastly superior.

There you go. Sonic 4 is free advertising for Sonic 1, 2, 3 and Knuckles.

End of my little piece.

 

Possible, except for the fact that most people will go hunting for the first one first, come across Sonic '06, realise it's really not that good, and then not bother.

 

Damn that game's name.

oh.....er......I mean....er....what "Sonic 06"....there never was a game called "Sonic 06"

Shh, I won't tell them if you won't

 

Except that this game is blatantly trying to look like the old games; it's not trying to look entirely new at all. (And I know I'm inviting some snarky response about the rehashed material with that statement, but that's not the aspect I'm referring to here.) It's essentially trying to look like a halfway-point between modern visuals and the old-school graphical style, and hence is using HD-resolution pre-renders to create tiles and scrolling backgrounds that mimic the Genesis games' graphical styles. The effect they're going for isn't entirely modern, so it shouldn't be judged entirely by modern standards. That's my thought on it, anyway.

You can talk about how the Sonic games would have looked were they made on modern technology in the first place, but this isn't a game that's trying to look like a game made on modern technology; it's a game made on modern technology trying to look reminiscent of a game made on outdated technology. The difference between this and something like Mega Man 9 or Mega Man 10 is that it's not going whole-hog retro in terms of pixel count; it's attempting to be reminiscent without sacrificing modern visual flair (for better or for worse, depending on who you ask, I suppose), but the intent isn't terribly different.

 

^^^

Basically, it's pretending it's running on a Mega Drive that for some reason can actually display in High Definition, just like it says on the box!

 

I'm thinking of how the other characters looked in Unleashed. (Somewhere, somebody posted some Knuckles art from Unleashed, I don't know where it came from, but it looked like his '06 model, only his fur was darker), not just Sonic. If they're using Sonic's unleashed model, chances are they'll use Tails' model (and a possible Knuckles model, maybe one they didn't finish) and I really don't want that. If they aren't willing to use the classic design for reference, they could at least steer away from the next gen titles.

I watched a playthrough of it. That was enough to convince me SEGA has no idea what the hell a 3-D game is supposed to be like. Have they ever stopped to look at how Mario or any other 3-D platformer transitioned? Or do they just assume the exact same game-play should work in 3-D like it does in 2-D? (Beat-em-up stages don't really qualify as 'platforming' which is all the werehog did anyway.)

If it's so damn advanced, why is it so hard to do anything on CD? You can't go very fast because the levels are cluttered which means time travel is nearly impossible, the jumping is weird, and feels like Sonic 1's and it just doesn't work like Sonic 2 or 3. If it's so advanced, why does it have to work like Sonic 1?

You know, speaking for other people is really annoying.

They're harder than Sonic 2's because you have less chances to actually try them and because there's barely any room for error. Those reverse blocks are in critical parts of the level and make jumping very hard, which makes dodging the fail buttons very hard, which makes them unplayable. At least in Sonic 2's stages you have more chances to practice them and at least they were more interesting. Their gimmick was "It looks 3-D!" Sonic 1's gimmick was "We can make a world spin! But you can't control it, and we put reverse blocks in it to fuck you up when you have a perfect strategy. Did we mention you get nothing for getting all the emeralds? :specialed:"

 

A lot of people are looking too deeply into this.

It's a half decent looking 2d sonic game, I couldn't be happier

 

First of all, fuck the Werehog. I just pretend he doesn't exist.

Secondly, it's incredible fun blasting through the main day levels at super speed (no, let's not bring up that argument again), and some of the extra day levels have a lot of platforming in them if that's what you like.

Level design != physics. If you can't go fast because the levels are cluttered, that's nothing to do with the physics. The jumping is exactly the same as Sonic 1's is exactly the same as Sonic 2's is exactly the same as Sonic 3's. And it works like Sonic 1's physics because it's based on Sonic 1's physics. Sonic 2's physics are based on Sonic 1's physics. Beginning to see a pattern here?

You find five people that disagree. Look around, there's plenty of people in this thread. In fact:

--- IF YOU THINK SONIC 1'S SPECIAL STAGES ARE THE HARDEST IN THE CLASSIC SERIES, POST NOW!!! ---

Hit one bomb on the later Sonic 2 special stages and you've got no way of getting the emerald.

The corners in Sonic 2's special stages are in critical parts of the level and make seeing upcoming bombs and rings very hard, which makes dodging bombs very hard, which makes it unplayable.

Whaddya know? They're both unplayable.

Because Super Sonic hadn't been dreamt up yet? Technically, you get nothing even when you beat the game, just a credits sequence. And then, -poof- all your hard work vanishes into nothing.

 

Sonic 4 is less like Megaman 9 and more like Street Fighter IV

 

I suppose you could say that, although Street Fighter IV was made with retail release exclusively on the two more powerful consoles in mind, and is thus a fair few leagues above and beyond what Sonic 4 is trying to be.

 

Funnily enough I was just playing a bit of NSMB Wii there and I was thinking "there should so be a Sonic game like this!". :specialed:

 

Of course it is. When did I argue that it wasn't?

As I've pointed out before though, they've got the aesthetic a bit backwards, which leads to an odd effect. 2D graphics drawn to evoke more dimensionality than they really have comes off as impressive. Rendered 3D converted to flat sprites reeks of laziness and...well just plain doesn't look very pleasant, which is sacrificing visual flair.

 

Looks pleasant enough to me when it's not doing something stupid like shiny, plastic grass. I think your perception is more a personal-opinion thing than anything else.