don't click here

Sonic Frontiers Thread - PS4, PS5, Xbox, Switch, PC

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by MykonosFan, May 27, 2021.

  1. PsychoSk8r

    PsychoSk8r

    PsychedelAnt | Tone Turner Oldbie
    2,629
    48
    28
    Birmingham, UK
    30 Day Project: Revisited.A New Release!
    I’m gonna need to get me quite the PC upgrade! Still running the same kind of powered tech I was using in the mid-2000s. The switch is the most powerful bit of kit I’ve ever had =P
     
  2. Gestalt

    Gestalt

    Sphinx in Chains Member
    Tips for parrying Wyvern on hard mode:
    • Do not rely on audio cues, instead, always look for the closest missile and from where Wyvern's strikes occur
    • Your parries are slightly off, keep that in mind
    • Wyvern's attacks always occur from the upper left or right of the screen, depending on Sonic's Position
    • Make sure you have enough rings when the fight starts (you want to have at least 150 rings when you get to Knight)
    • Use cyloop during the first phase
    • Learn how to parry Wyvern's tail swipe. Is it me, or is the Master King Koco conveniently hovering over the critical spot?
    Then, try to tear through Knight as quickly as possible. During its pre-phase, I used Spin Dash to launch Sonic into the air and to avoid Knight's spikes. Lucked out quite a bit on this boss.
     
  3. Venom Snake

    Venom Snake

    Member
    52
    8
    8
    USA
    So I beat the new story update, took me 6-7 hours on Hard without doing a lot of the side content, just enough to level up Tails/Knuckles/Amy and play 2 of the new levels. Great amount of content for a free update, very excellent move by SEGA.
    The actual update was a bit of a mixed bag, but mostly great. The good stuff was REALLY good, Tails and Amy are pretty fun to play as and I like how they have big differences from Sonic without being less enjoyable to play as. The few new stages I played also had genuinely awesome level design, with a proper environment (instead of the cyberspace asset reuse backdrop) they would be some killer levels. I'm also a fan of making the game's platforming more difficult and complex, some of it can be a little tedious falling all the way down and could use some checkpoint-type suff but the fact that we actually have serious attempts at momentum-based platforming is a little crazy to me. Granted its designed so you just boost or spin dash into the ramps and not actually build up momentum, but nonetheless having more manual and less automated dash-panel platforming was a very welcome addition. It definitely needs some refinement but the thought of using your own mechanics to go up ramps is actually there, which is something I don't think has been in a 3D Sonic game since like, Adventure 2? Also the true final boss and ending as a whole was wayyyy more badass and satisfying than the base game.

    Now for the bad, Knuckles sucks to play as (as you all have said lol). His climbing is way too fast and slide-y feeling and it has an annoying quirk where climbing towards a non-climbable surface causes him to just fall off the wall, and coupled with his awful gliding controls, its incredibly frustrating. He definitely needs to have a slightly slower climbing speed and a better turn radius while gliding. Additionally, the deacceleration settings the devs added in the past few updates kinda rear their ugly head with Knuckles, as even at 99% deacceleration gently moving the stick to move a tiny bit forward will cause characters to keep walking like an extra foot before they stop. It basically has to be disabled with 100% ground deacceleration to stop this annoying quirk. For other characters its not as annoying because they have enough jumps to reposition in mid-air, Knuckles does not have that, and as a result it was enraging doing any sort of precise platforming with him. The devs need to have the deacceleration be more tied to movement speed, so things like slow walking and tiny movements always stop the character when the stick is let go, and it only applies when going speeds that would actually apply significant momentum.
    Also just like others have said, the difficulty spike in this update on hard is INSANE. It's easily some of the most unforgiving, brutal difficulty ever put into a Sonic game. The later challenges restricting to just perfect parry and level 1 stats is an incredibly bullshit mechanic as the game is clearly not designed around it at all and makes the boss rush require PERFECT play to get through. I actually had to change the difficulty to Easy to get through it. That should never be done in any Sonic game ever again lol. I have beat plenty of character action games on harder difficulties and Frontiers has easily some of the worst parry timings on hard of any game I've ever played. Its so hard to judge when a parry will go through because the parry isn't instant and the animation doesn't clearly tell when its engaged. The lack of rings for the boss rush is just insanely dumb as well.

    Overall, I think the new content was mostly great and this update made me extremely excited for the next 3D Sonic game, as I can clearly see some massive improvements in the level design over the base game, and the cast of characters play pretty well all things considered (besides Knuckles). When this game works, I can see a genuinely amazing sequel coming out of this. It just needs more polish and better environments. Considering SEGA said this game was a huge success and they are giving the next game a much larger budget, I'm hoping Sonic Team truly has the confidence and dedication to make the next game something truly special. This update was a nice surprise for me and I see the team is getting better at level design with every chance they get at it.
     
  4. jubbalub

    jubbalub

    #1 Sonic Superstars defender Member
    920
    1,147
    93
    Protip if you're running out of time: spam the Cross Slash and Stomp Attack. Those are your best damage dealers, they shred Wyvern specifically.
     
  5. Willie

    Willie

    Each day the world turns Laugh 'til it all burns Member
    Yesterday I uploaded a couple of Sonic Frontiers gameplay videos to YouTube. I'm not sure if this was the intended way to unlock Tails, but it works.



     
  6. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

    Member
    14,625
    1,608
    93
    Working on my art!
    It’s parrying Wyverns attacks that gets me, and the punishing wait you must endure if you screw up. The rest I can mostly envision doing but wyvern… nah.

    Also why is the tower and the quick step section considered part of the boss?
     
  7. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    The cyberspace level designs in the DLC give a slight hope in future 3D Sonics having less automation / more path variety, but it's really hard to feel a lot of excitement for it when it's still built from asset spam and floating over bottomless pits. It's hard to tell if they're getting better at this or if we're about to see a lot more "building blocks in a floating void" levels. That one part of the DLC + - where Sage says the asset spam is largely Sonic's hallucinations (lmao)   has me hopeful, but with Sonic Team you can never tell what they're gonna do until they do it.

    I've been ludicrously hard on this game but I think it's because I care a lot about aesthetics and presentation. For most of the series, Sonic hasn't been one to compromise on art direction or visual variety; even when I didn't agree at all with the choices made. The classics are a feast for the eyes, the Adventures and most of the mid-00s games are very stylish despite being somewhat lower-poly than their contemporaries, and the boost games are some of the most impressive games of the seventh gen. It's not just visual fidelity or lighting I'm talking about either; it's how creative, exciting and full of detail the worlds are in these games. It really helps lock in what's so good about Sonic: a character that travels around the world and the stars alike, with each new place being a whole new world to explore or think about. There was always so many bells and whistles in each Zone's identity, there was a lot of care in making them feel alive.

    Meanwhile the amount this game has cut corners and left many things visually unpolished has been IMO one of the worst showings I've ever seen from the series, barring maybe Sonic 4 or 06 (all games that we as Sonic fans blast to bits). It's not just that I don't like the "realistic" style, it's how the color palette is so lacking, there's so little variety in biomes, the amount of detail is so low, and the overreliance on asset flipping is insane.

    And there are so many little moments that make you wonder how it even got past them. When Sonic hits a goal ring he just stands in mid-air before teleporting away. Sonic's rail flip animation hasn't animated right from the start, and now the Quick Step animation is bugged. That Flicky-carrying gimmick in the new DLC has Sonic snap violently to a pose with his spikes brushed aside before the Flicky even ends up in his hands. The game is full of small sloppy moments like this that pile up en masse alongside everything else. And that's not even discussing the glitches found in the DLC (Knuckles being able to infinite jump... again).

    The game just looks bad and doesn't inspire confidence in me for the next game at all. I've rung my bell on it a million times since announcement, into release, and all the way to here, and it's not a lone sentiment no one's heard before either. I just feel like the amount of shelf-life this game's visuals have being acceptable is extremely short. Either the next 3D Sonic game blows it away and makes it look pathetic in comparison, or it doesn't, and fans exit the Frontiers honeymoon period realizing the "potential" they expected the sequel to reach wasn't met. It's pretty lose-lose for this game.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2023
  8. Sneekie

    Sneekie

    Sneasy Member
    774
    690
    93
    Floating over bottomless pits is a holdover from the fundamental design of Cyber Space and asset spam is due to the fact that it's a free DLC update. I can assume they hardly had a significant budget to make new assets (and they already made a lot).

    It's unreasonable to expect the new Cyber Space levels to literally look like an entirely different game in the same game. If anything, I would be salivating at the idea of a sequel made from scratch (relatively; any and every game reuses assets between games, Sonic Team would be dumb to literally start from scratch) having the Final Horizon's level design with new, potentially better assets.

    How is it a bad thing if the sequel looks and plays better than the original? Sonic 1 looks pathetic in comparison to Sonic 2. Sonic Adventure looks pathetic in comparison to Sonic Adventure 2 (yup). Sonic Advance looks pathetic in comparison to Sonic Advance 2. And so on.

    Sonic Unleashed is one exception, with Colors, Generations, and Forces looking debatably (for Generations; I actually like Generations' art direction over Unleashed, but Unleashed has it beat in sheer detail and depth) worse, but that's because Unleashed clearly had a significantly higher budget, scope, etc. that the other games couldn't hope to match (also, Colors was on the Wii).

    The sequel being better is a norm, it SHOULD be a norm, it SHOULD HAVE been a norm; it doesn't somehow mean the previous game was bad. And if there's anyone who wants Frontiers to look like shit compared to its sequel, it's Sonic Team themselves, who stop short of saying that themselves.

    Do you not find it weird to frame your own expectations for a sequel as "either it's good and Frontiers sucks, or it's bad and Frontiers sucks"? As if it's not about wanting a good Sonic game, it's about making sure everyone who likes this game "realizes" they're wrong, lol.
     
  9. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    No I don't find it weird, because I think Frontiers is an ugly game whether or not the next game is good. That's my point. And Colors/Gens/etc may not look as good as Unleashed but that's only by technicality of the lighting engine being less sophisticated. The games are beautiful showcases of what good art direction can do.

    I'm not here to make you decide you hate Frontiers. I'm just here to state why I think it's visually their worst looking game by a landslide, and why the visual/presentation side matters to me enough that it affects my enjoyment. That is all. Not gonna continue another multi-page debate with you over why that's a wrong take.
     
  10. Sneekie

    Sneekie

    Sneasy Member
    774
    690
    93
    I clearly understand that you think it's an ugly game, and it's not even that I wholly disagree, it's just weird that you think the next game looking better is a "lose situation" for Frontiers, and not... what's supposed to happen lol.

    I love Frontiers but it's not a person. Its feelings won't get hurt. Everyone wants the next game to look and play better. That's why people want a sequel!

    Sonic Frontiers could be the best looking Sonic game and I would still want the sequel to make it look like ass.
     
  11. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    Much of the discourse about Frontiers is built around "potential". Potential that the next game is going to do it better, as if what exists here isn't quite there. If the next game is an improvement, then you have to accept what Frontiers is on it's own instead of the promises of the next entry, because the next entry is now the standard. If the next game is no better, then that potential was never met, and any good graces may evaporate. Love may become hate, as the things you brushed off before may not be able to brushed off now.

    This is the problem of building faith in things on potential. If you genuinely like it for what it is, then just say it and hold to those convictions. It's better to say what you feel in the now than to live in potentially hollow prospects.

    EDIT - FWIW, I don't think every sequel defeats the last game. All the classic Sonic games have something unique to offer in gameplay and art design, and Sonic 1 is still at the end of it a good game. SA2 has better visual fidelity but I like SA1's art style better. Unleashed has better lighting, but all three boost games look marvelous. Hence my point. These games stand on their own. Will this one? For me, no, but what about you?
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2023
  12. Sneekie

    Sneekie

    Sneasy Member
    774
    690
    93
    People already accept Frontiers for what it is on its own. Even people who praise the game as their favorite aren't shy in criticizing it.

    The game has a great base and uneven execution; that unevenness is more positive than negative, but everyone can see where it can improve.

    The sequel can be the best Sonic game of all time and Frontiers will still be to me a good game that could be better. The sequel can be worse than Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric and I would still think that Frontiers is a good game that could be better.

    You sound like you are framing this as people "not accepting", "not realizing", "not admitting" that Frontiers is actually bad, and that's why you get multi-page arguments. You don't like it, you don't have to like it, you're not even wrong in why you don't like it, that's all fine, really. I mean that.

    But you are not, have not, will not be the "only one" who sees Frontiers "on its own". Many people do. It'll suck if Sonic Team can't keep the momentum, but Frontiers was still good, its potential is and was still there. It'll always be there. Hell, that's still true for the boost games and the Adventure games. The difference is that Sonic Team is resolute in what they have now. If there's anyone who wants to live up to that potential, it's Sonic Team.

    I want a sequel because I want to see Sonic Team improve on the foundation they've built. Not only is Frontiers good enough for me to believe this, but Sonic Team is improving it already. The Final Horizon is as flawed as the original, an has about as many genuinely baffling decisions, but pretty much everything is an improvement and the flaws can be improved. Most of its problems can be attributed to it being a free update to an existing game.

    Personally, I care more about having multiple good Sonic games than one "perfect" Sonic game. I'm the most excited I've been as a Sonic fan specifically because I can actually see where the series is going. It's not just this game either.

    You want a sequel because you... want to feel smug over people who dared thought Frontiers was a good game? If it's good, they have to "take Frontiers on its own", as if no one was doing that before. If it's bad, they have to accept that Frontiers was never good and there was no "potential". I can't read this any other way?

    Anyway, we're stopping here lol.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2023
  13. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    You can read my posts for what they're saying or you can interpret my every word in bad faith and pull it apart in dissertation. Your choice to make!
     
  14. Starduster

    Starduster

    Sonic Retro's resident IDW slut Member
    1,896
    1,165
    93
    Britain
    Art...always art...
    @Azookara As someone who’s been a lot more endeared to the game than you, I agree with a lot of what you’re saying.

    In terms of “potential”, I agree that it’s unhealthy and counterproductive to fantasise on a world where Frontiers is perfect and present that as the assured next step, but Frontiers does still make me hopeful for the future, because I think a lot of it demonstrates that Sonic Team (and in particular Kishimoto, bless that man and his patience for Sonic fans) is listening. Despite how sour this last update has turned me on a lot of Frontiers (and even before hand the cracks were only growing more obvious), I think I can look at the totality of what we’ve gotten and reasonably say that Sonic Team have tried to give us what we’ve been asking for within very tight constraints, particularly with the DLC, which I wouldn’t be surprised to hear was made on a shoestring budget.

    Granted, we can still only judge what’s in front of us, and what’s in front of us is riddled with problems, but I think it’s at least a reasonable expectation that Sonic is done playing it safe and, more importantly, being rushed to market. Frontiers, for all its flaws, represents an honest-to-god paradigm shift for the series, in production as well as gameplay, with Iizuka sticking his neck out to get the game more time cook. In a financial sense, that’s paid dividends, and ultimately money talks.

    Taken with Sonic Superstars, which looks to be trying to channel Mania while avoiding the pitfalls of Sonic 4, I’m excited for the future of 3D Sonic for the first time since Generations because I can actually believe that SEGA and Sonic Team are actually starting to get a clue.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  15. Sneekie

    Sneekie

    Sneasy Member
    774
    690
    93
    My fingers are crossed so hard for this it's unreal. Superstars is definitely super promising in that regard. When they said they waited until the game was 70-80% done before they announced it, I was like "YES. YES. DO THIS. ALL COMPANIES SHOULD DO THIS."

    Personally, I don't want to even hear about the next 3D game until 3 years from now and the release date is in 5 months at least.
     
  16. Venom Snake

    Venom Snake

    Member
    52
    8
    8
    USA
    I think Frontiers on it's own is good. The reason why everyone keeps bringing up the "potential" is because Frontiers's execution is good but could be significantly better with more refinement. For example, I like the combat, it's satisfying and fits the speed of Sonic games well, but the enemy types are extremely polarizing because some are enjoyable to fight (like the ninjas) but then others are genuinely insufferable (the rock forming ones). The combat is not bad, the framework is good, it's that it could use more refinement. That's how I'd describe Frontiers as a whole. The dev team is clearly learning from their mistakes and closely listening to fan feedback, so it makes sense that a sequel that further irons things out would be excellent.
    The groundwork is there for something amazing rather than something just good. This is the first time since Adventure 1 released where I actually feel like Sonic Team could make a Sonic game that would turn heads from the general public and not just platformer fans. Frontiers almost got there but not quite. The lack of polish makes the game a bit polarizing.
     
  17. There's a reason I compared this game to Adventure and Unleashed, two other games that established a new playstyle but were heavily experimental and the sequels took a step in addressing said issues... to uh mixed results.

    Sonic Adventure 2 is a lot of millennial Sonic fans' favorite game, but there are still debates over whether it's an upgrade to its predecessor or not.

    Sonic Colors was initially praised for building on what Unleashed established until Generations came out, which caused people to look at it much more critically than before.


    But I do think it's a bit flawed to put so much blind faith in Sonic Team after Frontiers though. As the song goes, "Been down this road before, already know the story"
     
  18. Sneekie

    Sneekie

    Sneasy Member
    774
    690
    93
    I mean, those games and those sequels are pretty good reasons as to why people think the Frontiers sequel will be an improvement. Especially Unleashed -> Colors -> Generations, which is very much considered to be an uphill climb and is two good games in a row.

    Adventure 2 is more debatable but in my experience that has been the favored of the two and for many reasons displaces the first in public consciousness. SA2 has a lot of differences from SA but they're generally lumped together in quality and design.

    If we're talking about history, then historically Sonic Team has at least one good hit of "sequel that understands what people wanted in the original game". Then they make a mediocre game that's entirely different (Heroes to Adventure, Lost World to the boost games), then they course correct to the original formula but do it significantly worse ('06 to Adventure, Forces to the boost games).
     
  19. That was to say Colors stopped bring looked at fondly once Generations came out and then the debate became how much of an improvement it was over Unleashed.

    But fine, I'll be entirely fair and say Generation is thr actual sequel to Unleashed.

    The point stands, Adventure 2 and Generations aren't seen as complete upgrades to their prequels. More like sidegrades.
     
  20. I played more Cyberspace levels and I think I would much rather have a game full of levels designed like the new Cyberspace stages instead of another open zone title. Its a much more genuine combination of Adventure and Boost design which I'm totally on board with, and I'd love to see this made with actual terrain in new environments instead of platform and block spam. Not at all confident in Sonic Team pulling that off with an open environment, but with something much more linear and focused? Yes please.