Project Needlemouse: old threads

MainMemory · Sep 10, 2009

I disagree somewhat with 9 in that I don't think the current music is bad.
I really liked the cutscenes in Black Knight. Cutscenes are not always bad.
I'm probably not helping your opinion of me by saying this stuff, but I think I should be able to say what I think. I've been with Sonic since I first developed the mental capacity to play videogames. And I can look over my shoulder right now and see my Model 1 Genesis with Sonic 3 & Knuckles in it.

RevFirst · Sep 10, 2009

Music's the last thing Sonic needs to worry about (talking about Unleashed, not that rock/06-epic crap). Other than that, bravo Blue Emerald.

libertyernie · Sep 10, 2009

Bean the Dynamite wasn't really a Sonic character. He was an extra for a fighting game.

And if they ever make another fighting game I want to see him in it

Chaos Knux · Sep 10, 2009

A green anthro duck with an explosives addiction, ISN'T A SONIC CHARACTER? Are you high?

Jayextee · Sep 10, 2009

Chaos Knux said:

A green anthro duck with an explosives addiction, ISN'T A SONIC CHARACTER? Are you high?
Click to expand...

Not technically, no.

Clutch · Sep 10, 2009

I like the little nostalgic bits in the trailer like the SEGA scream and the Sonic 1-esque logo. Though I would've liked them to go whole (hedge)hog and shove a variation of the original title theme music in there. Eh, can't have everything. I'm still pulling for them to have box art that looks airbrushed again.

Don't see much to complain about when we've seen so little, I'll sit back and enjoy the ride for now.

blueblur87 · Sep 10, 2009

If they're going to put the new characters in the game, I'd like it if SEGA puts in 2 modes - one for old school fans and one for new, and in the old-school version of the story, all the new characters get turned into badniks and end up as bosses in the game. The characters I'm ok with are Chaotix Crew, Knuckles, Amy and Nack the Weasel... anything from Cream, Big and Shadow onwards (basically when Chao's arrived) I am not fond of - these guys can become badniks, some of them lost forever in Robotnik's factory...

Needlemouse.com artwork - I don't like it... the brown stuff is supposed to be rocky and geometric, at least having a rock-like appearance, not all organic and twisty the twistyness might suit Mushroom Hill, but not Green Hill...

Loggo · Sep 10, 2009

Blue Emerald said:

Okay, so my first ever serious rant starts now.

It's really nice to see that Sega is trying hard to appeal to the fans who have loved the Sonic series ever since its explosive beginnings in the '90s. It's also nice to see that they are working on an HD-2D look for the game, as is referenced by that neat spinning ring in the trailer. I agree with this design approach, not only because it will fit in to this modern age of gaming, but because this is how the Sega of old would have designed a 2D Sonic in the first place -- they were always looking for a way to improve the designs of every Sonic game to make it more immersive for the players. An HD-styled Sonic just makes sense. After having read the interview at Gamespot, it seems to me that the brand manager over at Sega, Ken Ballough, really seems like a true blue dedicated Sonic fan; the fact that he's acknowledged lesser-known Sonic trivia such as Sonic Chaos, Sonic's "way past cool" catchphrase from SatAM, and the underappreciated Sonic the Fighters character Bark the Polar Bear, who truly hasn't found his place in the Sonic universe yet, makes him a credible spokesperson for this new Sonic game. I really hope Sega does right by this new project...

...but just to make sure, I'd like to set a few things straight with Sega. If it's true that Sega really does pay attention to forums like these, then I really hope that the team behind this game takes these suggestions (though, considering Sonic's recent track record, I should rather consider these "guidelines"), to heart. Ready, Sega? Well, here goes:

1) Do NOT add new characters: You already have more than enough characters to work with. You definitely have no need to make more, and apparently it is in your company's best interest to add more depth and purpose to the characters already at your disposal. If you must add characters to this game, I would ask that you start working on the Sonic characters from the early '90s that have otherwise been ignored. Try working on Mighty the Armadillo, Ray the Flying Squirrel, Fang the Sniper, Heavy & Bomb, Metal Knuckles, or even Bean the Dynamite. Of course, Tails and Knuckles have already been at the forefront of your attention, so I don't ask that you abandon these two important characters, but otherwise work these characters appropriately into their respective places in the classic Sonic lore.

2) Go back to the original Badnik designs: In the beginning, Dr. "Eggman" Robotnik encapsulated innocent animals known as "Flickies" into creature-like robots called "Badniks." As of late, your more recent games have abandoned this concept for a more lifeless or android-like approach to Robotnik's creations. If you intend to stay close to the classic design, Badniks must be brought back to the animal-like design -- a design which actually brought more personality to the game. The android approach should only be restricted to Robotnik's "Metal" series, by which I refer to Metal Knuckles, Bionic Sonic (Sonic 2), Metal Sonic (Sonic CD), and Mecha Sonic (Sonic & Knuckles).

3) Do not implement alien creatures into the game: No Iblis, no Gaia, no Dark Brotherhood, no chaos monsters from the center of the earth, none of that. The only enemies that Sonic and his friends need to combat are Dr. Robotnik and his wacky mechanical creations, and nothing more.

4) It's not all about speed: If you look at the Genesis Sonic games of old, you'll realize that the levels were never really all about speed. We never wanted Sonic to run at 300 miles per hour, and as a matter of fact, this high speed actually ruined the level design of recent games. It's much too easy to smack into spikes or other hazards when running that fast. The great Sonic levels of old were all about exploration. The speed was not only a reward for the player's skill, but it was also used as a superpower to either blast through areas quickly or to activate some environmental objects. The classic games' Time Bonus was meant to be a reward for the player's mastery of getting through the level as quick as possible. Speed was never mandatory, it was rewarded. Take Sonic 3 or Sonic CD, for example. The levels had so many hidden rooms and routes that, when explored, led to fantastic discoveries and great rewards. I ask that the development team at Sega pay close attention to the designs of the levels from Sonic 1-3, CD, and Sonic & Knuckles. Make each zone an adventure, not an obstacle course.

5) Keep the cutscenes and voice acting to a minimum: If you look at the games Sonic the Hedgehog 3, Sonic & Knuckles, and Sonic the Hedgehog CD, you'll notice that the game had a great way of telling the story without lengthy cutscenes or any amount of dialogue. Cutscenes always played themselves out as you progressed through a level, or in the case of Sonic CD, cutscenes played themselves out after the title screen and appeared once the game was won. The most dialogue ever used in the early '90s Sonic platformers was a triumphant "Yes!" from Sonic when he obtained an extra life, or "I'm outta here" if he was left tapping his foot for too long, and that was all the dialogue we needed, and yet we could still enjoy the game. However, if you ever do consider using voices in this game, I personally ask that you try to find someone who can emulate the Sonic voice from Sonic CD, but that decision is up to you.

6) Use the classic surreal designs from the early Sonic games: No more of these semi-realistic designs that you used in Unleashed, Sonic 2006, and the Adventure series. Make them as weird and surreal as possible. Look at the designs in Sonic CD and Knuckles' Chaotix for reference. They were vivid, surreal, unpredictable, and yet they felt natural to Sonic's world. This is the design style you should be striving for.

7) Make special gimmicks for each zone: I really don't want to see a grinding rail, a dash ring, or a dash pad in every single zone like there was in Sonic Adventure 2 and every one of the other Sonic games that came after it. Springs and spikes should be the only staples to be used in every zone, because they work and they work well. Create wild and fun new gimmicks that fit well with each zone's different environment. Look at the gimmicks in the early '90s Sonic platformers for reference.

8) Ditch Green Hill Zone for good: I noticed on your website that you are using three-dimensional models that look like pieces from Green Hill Zone. Do not make another Green Hill! Your company has already done this level to death in countless Sonic games (including re-releases), so it really needs to go away. It's had a good run, but you need to go beyond Green Hill Zone for classic Sonic level design.

9) Music needs to sound like classic Sonic music: I strongly discourage use of heavy metal, songs with lyrics (like the ones from the Adventure series), or the new-age techno-like tracks that appeared in Sonic 2006. I encourage you to strive for upbeat, '90s pop-style tracks; these were the kinds of tracks found in the classic Genesis Sonic games, and were one of the games' major high points. These songs are still upbeat and catchy to this day. I suggest hiring Masafumi Ogata, Naofumi Hataya (both of Sonic CD fame), and Howard Drossin to write these songs for you. You could even try hiring Spencer Nilsen; his tracks in the US version of Sonic CD weren't half-bad at all. Just stick to the '90s style of music, and I promise that you'll be fine.

10) No required Super Sonic levels: Levels played as Super Sonic should only be a bonus for the player, as it was in Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Games like Sonic Rush have been chastised for requiring the player to collect all of the Chaos Emeralds to beat the game. Back in the day, the emeralds would grant the player a bonus reward at the end of the game. Keep it this way, as a challenge for Sonic players to get even better.

11) Do not rush this game!: If your development team ever needs more time to perfect this Sonic game, then by all means, we encourage you to push back the release date! So many of Sega's recent Sonic games have either been buggy or sub-par because of rushed release dates. If you need the time to make this game incredible, then please, take all the time you need. It should only become better because of it.

I am not saying any of this to criticize Sega. I am a longtime fan of Sonic, and I only wish to help the development team to make the best Sonic game possible. Sonic was always at his best in a wild and fantastic 2-D adventure of speed, wonder, and exploration. My greatest wish for the development team behind the Needlemouse Project is that they live up to the standards of the classic Sonic games from the Sega Genesis era, which are without question the greatest platform games ever created, and truly define what video games are all about.

Rant over.
Click to expand...

BEST POST IN THE HISTORY OF INTERNET

Except for 8.
Green Hill clones a are a cult theme in the Sonic series, every Sonic game need to have them, in the same way every Mario game needs to have an underground themed stage or the missing princess situation.

OSM · Sep 10, 2009

Loggo said:

Except for 8.
Green Hill clones a are a cult theme in the Sonic series, every Sonic game need to have them, in the same way every Mario game needs to have an underground themed stage or the missing princess situation.
Click to expand...

To be fair, Sonic 3 and S&K had a more Jungle/tropical theme for a beginning level, going for a atmosphere wouldn't be asking for much.

I don't mind seeing GHZ clones (though I really want to see some new stuff), I just want to play a really fun platformer again.

DimensionWarped · Sep 10, 2009

Sonic 3 and Knuckles didn't have a green hill clone...

Personally, I'm bored with green hill clones. I'd like to see them go wild with the themes.

Vendettagainst · Sep 10, 2009

Loggo said:

BEST POST IN THE HISTORY OF INTERNET

Except for 8.
Green Hill clones a are a cult theme in the Sonic series, every Sonic game need to have them, in the same way every Mario game needs to have an underground themed stage or the missing princess situation.
Click to expand...

I think he means actual remakes of GHZ, I.e. SA2B.

The Pulse · Sep 10, 2009

I'm serious, that Twisty Hill artwork is starting to creep me out.

I mean, that wall has a knot in it. Not like a lump in a tree, but a fucking Knot. Like on a rope.

Jayextee · Sep 10, 2009

If that concept art is any indication of intended direction (and not necessarily quality) of the art, we're safely going to have the oldschool surrealism back.

That I can approve of.

Sik · Sep 10, 2009

DimensionWarped said:

Personally, I'm bored with green hill clones. I'd like to see them go wild with the themes.
Click to expand...

I'm tired of checkerboard patterns really. I mean, I think that besides Green Hill zone it was barely used in the old games (I don't count Sonic 3D's floors as that was due to a hardware limitation really).

The Pulse · Sep 10, 2009

Jayextee said:

If that concept art is any indication of intended direction (and not necessarily quality) of the art, we're safely going to have the oldschool surrealism back.

That I can approve of.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's surreal. So surreal, in fact, that tonight I'm going to have nightmares of getting tied up by those platforms and watch them hideously contort themselves.

There's a fine line I draw between surreal shit and shit that is fucking alive and going to jump out of this monitor and make me shit my pants by so much as animating at me.

muteKi · Sep 10, 2009

blueblur87 said:

I thought it was virtually impossible to make a bad 2D Sonic game, but several games on the Gameboy Advanced and PSP have proved me wrong - using the new physics from the 3D games. Call me a 2D Sonic purist or fanboy, but I just want them to finally get it right for once, I've been waiting for so long, could this be the one?
Click to expand...

Oddly enough this line rather seems to contradict the point you're trying to make -- the 3D games would be a lot better if they used controls and physics similar to the older games.

Fuck, it might actually make Unleashed palatable.

Jayextee · Sep 10, 2009

If this game had levels that were ALIVE (rather than the occasional moving background flower), I would love it so much. In my opinion Sonic's got too conservative; it never used to be about sticking to the same old formula.

Frozen Nitrogen · Sep 10, 2009

The Pulse said:

Yeah, it's surreal. So surreal, in fact, that tonight I'm going to have nightmares of getting tied up by those platforms and watch them hideously contort themselves.

There's a fine line I draw between surreal shit and shit that is fucking alive and going to jump out of this monitor and make me shit my pants by so much as animating at me.
Click to expand...

And let's not forget that this is Green Hill Zone, the cutesy starting level which is supposed to be the least threatening of them all.

Based on this, imagine the terror when you see Labyrinth Zone again.

Bricks will be shat.

OSM · Sep 10, 2009

Jayextee said:

If this game had levels that were ALIVE (rather than the occasional moving background flower), I would love it so much. In my opinion Sonic's got too conservative; it never used to be about sticking to the same old formula.
Click to expand...

That would be insane. I can see the level moving itself as Sonic runs along it, I think that's a really neat idea. Probably not the best idea for a GHZ level though, maybe something more mechanical and less innocent in one of the later Zones.

Dark Sonic · Sep 10, 2009

The Pulse said:

Jayextee said:

If that concept art is any indication of intended direction (and not necessarily quality) of the art, we're safely going to have the oldschool surrealism back.

That I can approve of.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's surreal. So surreal, in fact, that tonight I'm going to have nightmares of getting tied up by those platforms and watch them hideously contort themselves.

There's a fine line I draw between surreal shit and shit that is fucking alive and going to jump out of this monitor and make me shit my pants by so much as animating at me.
Click to expand...

The concept art used on the site looks very crappy. Just look at that loop, it's not a smooth circle, it has distinguishable lines. Also look at the grass and the textures used for the checker pattern. They're awful. I highly doubt any of that stuff is final. Rather I imagine it was used simply to show "LOL CLASSIC GHZ"

I'm sick of Green Hill Zone. You know what I can't wait/hope to see in this game? Water levels, Carnival/Casino Levels, and another type of level like Marble Garden Zone. Ever since Sonic Adventure in the 3D games, Sonic has died the second he has submerged in water. I want to see another hydrocity or chemical plant please (but not another labryinth... never again)

Project Needlemouse: old threads

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