I thought this might be appropriate so as to avoid derailing the two ports' threads concerning the discussion of the unused content (which is admittedly a stretch in relation to what they may have, and in the case of CD, was outright debunked). A lot of people want to see remakes of the unfinished levels in the series like Hidden Palace and Wood Zone, etc, but said the finished remains of them in most games are either completely bare bones or outright non existent in terms of structure and design. Even Hidden Palace isn't even half finished. Several hacks have attempted to make their own ideal finished designs, but many of them are either very limited due to the remains of properties they have or have to use completely new ones to give it a satisfying play through. So, the question is, how do you think the real deals would have turned out finished?
You're really asking two questions here. Your topic title asks how would we design them, while the topic itself asks how would they have turned out finished? I'll answer them both... with regards to SONIC 2 zones. Second question first... impossible to tell, really. Because everything was either half done, or non existent, there is no way of knowing, or even giving an educated guess. I mean... the best that one could do is look through the concept art and the interviews here on Retro... and even THAT gives a limited answer. So that's a tough question that perhaps there is no answer. As for the first question... I'd have Hidden Palace (S2) be a complete 2 act Zone... One with an underwater gimmick, and the other with a vertical scrolling gimmick placed somewhere through the level. Perhaps Act 1 be looping, and have the elevator shaft placed near the end, and lined with enemies. Act 2 be the underwater phase. As for a boss... who knows? Wood Zone... (Name: Great Forest Zone) I like to think Sonic 2 Retro Remix did a fairly good job with it... though I'd add the gimmick with Bees that shoot fireballs to burn down certain areas (namely some bridges/walkways connecting trees), have it be bottomless pit heavy, due to being up high with trees. How about some chainsaws and the like since Robotnik would like to slash and burn the forest? As for other gimmicks/ideas... see Donkey Kong Country and go for that kind of feel... there is a treetop level somewhere I would draw some influence from. I'd also like to make Act 2 a vertically moving level in the inside of a tree. (A la Great Deku Tree... if that makes any sense, comparison wise) Dust Hill Zone would retain its name, and take on a double environment, with desert and ice themes. Maybe throw in ice physics for the second act? An idea for a boss would be in the Winter act, having Sonic face Robotnik over a series of Ice/Snow blocks, and Robotnik would adopt a strategy similar to Sonic 1's Spring Yard Zone, only with a flamethrower to melt the ice instead of a spike. Rock Zone... dunno if I would bother including this one, but if I did, it would have that gimmick from Little Big Planet where there is a vertical pit, and rocks fall from above and take you down... that's all I've got for you there. Cyber City would just need to be Metropolis Act 3, with an appearance similar to the Machine from Sonic Spinball... and some new gimmicks. Maybe the scrapped elevator idea for Sonic 2's Metropolis Zone, and definitely some new badniks... Sonic CD had a lot of things that could work for this type of level... actually. Death Egg Zone (S2) could use a full new first act, starting outside in space, and coming inside. Perhaps instead of a signpost you face Metal Sonic. Second act would be the final battle. Third act would be a death chase... with Sonic trying to escape the exploding Egg (With the Sonic 2 BETA Death Egg Zone music, for an added feel of rush and panic). Think of a 2D version of the post-Andross fight from Starfox 64... that is what I'm going for... THAT is how I want to do MY Death Egg Zone. Anyway there is a rough idea. Let's build on it.
Mushroom Hill and Sandopolis is pretty much Wood Zone and Dust zone, but they expanded them to make them more unique and fit the Sonic 3 style.
I always thought that Dust Hill zone would have been more similarly designed to a westernized cartoon desert, much like Road Runner cartoons, which could have lead to some very different designs I feel. That and now that I think about it, it would have made sense for dust hill to go where Mystic Cave went (since that level did take over Dust Hill anyway). You go into the Mountains with Hill top, then you descend into the desert, and then you head off to the oil refinery (and then from there I always thought that Metropolis Zone was the oil refinery due to those buildings in the background of Oil Ocean). Not that level order really mattered in Sonic 2, as I honestly can't think of any way the first four levels connect, unless Chemical Plant came somewhere after Metropolis and Casino Night zone was after Hill top or after where Dust Hill would have been in tribute to Vegas being in the middle of the desert.
Even if they were never implemented, the original maps must be out there, somewhere. That's the best way they could ever be done. =P
I've seen too many Wood Zone hacks that basically take the unfinished crap that's there and repeat it over and over again, as though it were almost finished and it just needs extra length. Bad jumping segments, Metropolis-style tubes that don't function, etc. This is clearly not a good way to complete a scrapped layout. Hidden Palace Zone already has some decent source material, so I think less important than design ideas are the design process. What I would do is first design the rest of Act 1 without changing anything that's already there. Once a first draft is finished from start to signpost, I'd lift my self-imposed ban on changing the existing areas, and start testing and revising based on what I feel works and doesn't. It could end up significantly different from what's there, but I think the existing material would (mostly) be kept. Act 2 work wouldn't even start until I'm completely satisfied with Act 1, and it would be based on whatever ideas naturally came out during Act 1's development. The key here is that I feel like HPZ already had some natural motifs and is a very good starting point; it just needs expanding on. Wood Zone's layout would likely be scrapped entirely, because it's barely complete, and utter shit. What little there is has already been done better in Metropolis Zone, and doesn't fit the theme of the level anyway. I would probably make this level more vertical than average, with a strong, active emphasis on really bringing to life the multi-tiered design that merely exists in other levels. I'm thinking climb a tree at the beginning (curved root = spindash to top? springs? column of two trees with jumpable branches? mystic cave vines? this needs fleshing out), and this always puts you at the top path (treetops). Over the course of the level, there are places to drop to the middle (branches) and bottom (dirt/ground) paths, but eventually you get forced top again in much the same manner as the first time; this cycle would repeat a few times. This would obviously require major art changes, but I think it'd be worth it. One gimmick I thought of, which I don't know if it's a good idea without testing, is that jumping or dropping through a bunch of leaves between paths would switch Sonic to falling (same as OOZ slides). It'd be largely inconsequential, since I don't approve of dick enemy placement underneath, but it could help give the zone a more unique tone. For the boss, I'm thinking trees like ARZ pillars, eggmobile attached to one of them slides up and down (off the top of the screen on one allows him to come down the other side), with some kind of saw attached. He occasionally turns off the saw and fires a woodchipper at sonic, which leaves an opening to attack him (this ain't sonic 3d blast, we're not gonna have openings for no reason). I wouldn't bother with zones that were never implemented in any fashion. Genocide City and the like hold no interest to me.
Hidden Palace - I'd probably make it somewhat similar to the design of Aquatic Ruin Zone (Water sections that are completely optional if you have the skill to stay on the upper paths), but actually give a flowing object to the river sections so they push against you. I'd scrap the Master Emerald object (Because we already have it in S3&K) and add a few more tubes in more areas to have multiple paths. Dust Hill Zone - We already have Dust Hill, it's called Mystic Cave :v: Oh I kid, I kid. I'm not sure how I would handle it. My first thought is a slightly varied Sandopolis Act 1 with some different gimmicks to differentiate it from that level, but I'm still not entirely sure how to handle it. Wood Zone - I liked how Retro Remix handled it (even though it wasn't specifically called wood zone, it's fucking wood zone and you know it), so I would just make it something like that. I think a huge, sprawling, very open level with lots of top paths being the tops of large trees and shit would work well. Rock Zone - Fuck if I know. Maybe take some platforming cues from Marble Zone (Before you rage at me, I mean the outside portions, not in the inside ones) and add some cool gimmicks? Cyber City - Take Metropolis Act 3, add the Machine background to it, there you go :v:
Fair point. I guess a bit of both, how would ideally have them work, albeit keeping within the realms of how they could likely be done by the developers. I think even for all Hidden Palace had got finished, it was still rather bare bones. Especially when you look at how many hacks structure extra areas (the near empty underwater areas for example, what exactly would go in them?). There are some parts that would interest me if expanded enough, eg. the elevator area, or the water slides that seemingly have no function as is, but it would need a fair bit more to add up to all it's hype. Adding more badniks may work a little concerning existing data (the remaining prehistoric ones were likely built for it at some point). I could maybe picture some more mystical gimmicks to blend in with the levels mysterious nature too, stuff like non mechanical teleporters and what not. I agree that Sonic Retro Remix did a better job recreating a Wood Zone, though even then it feels a tad bland. The aforementioned idea of industrial obstacles to befit the 'nature vs pollution' setup would maybe give it a bit more of a gimmick, not to mention act as an amusing semi nod to Satam. Avoiding giant buzz saws and axes, going through logs about to be sawn through. Dust Hill or Desert Dazzle (the latter was blatantly a nod to the original so they could more or less be the same thing), some how the mentioning of it being a Road Runner-esque desert makes me picture it as being rather fast paced. Lots of loop de loops and boosters, albeit with sand related obstacles to completely break your momentum (probably some well placed 'roadblock' badniks like that snail to occasionally take you by surprise too).
I'd scrap both altogether and start them over. Both Hidden Palace and Wood Zone are incomplete, displaced and are out of the final project. No matter how great the source material might have been, we have no idea of how it was supposed to fit in terms of composition and progress. It's not useful to be conservative and keeping whatever they had there. Thus, I disagree with this: Because if the best way they could ever be done didn't make it to the game, there's no point. Problem is, rethinking the levels is to rethink the game. Even if we design the single best Hidden Palace possible, it'd be counter-productive if we put it as a normal level right before Mystic Cave, since MCZ would be rendered ddevoid of its own brilliance. Recurring to "where they were supposed to be in the first place" is not an option either, because we then have no idea as of why they should be there. It's a matter of composing the game again. So Wood Zone is a huge problem because, visually, it's some sort of Aquatic Ruin sans water. Sonic 2 not having the most seamless progression ever, using Wood Zone as a transition between Emerald Hill and Aquatic Ruin would be interesting to improve this aspect, but would demand Chemical Plant to be moved to the slot after Aquatic Ruin. It's not at all a bad option and would enrich the game's sense of continuity, but how would that affect Chemical Plant? Placing Wood Zone elsewhere feels awkward to me, even with the conveyor belts matching it to Metropolis and whatnot. Hidden Palace is yet another problem. Would we place them as a normal level? As the level to be warped to after collecting the Chaos Emeralds? If it turned out to be like this, its structure wouldn't matter much, since it wouldn't contribute to composition. But I'm sure the single-level model would work much better. Dust Hill... heh. it depends on all other levels. Did they want a fast-paced game in terms of how you travel through the ambients? If such is the case, there's no place for it. The idea of making it fast-paced itself is great, especially because it'd be an opposition to its desolated visuals and supposed music. But would we make of Oil Ocean?
Wood Zone and Hidden Palace Zone feel lackluster because they lack almost any level objects. If they were to be finalized levels, they would need to have more gimmicks for each level. Hidden Palace feels like it was meant to have some, but uses collapsing platforms as temporary placeholders to navigate the level (there's a bunch of higher up areas, not to mention the unfinished level design). I feel Wood Zone was unfinished graphically too. Half of the tree tiles look broken, as if their edges weren't drawn yet. The whole zones graphics look sloppy, and the tileset in Sonic 2 Beta doesn't seem like its ideal for making a full zone. Also what Palas said, you would have to make sure Dust Hill, Wood, and Hidden Palace each felt like unique levels compared to the other zones. Wood Zone seems like it was starting out as some kind of tree-top lumber yard, with the conveyer belts and the wood holes similar in pattern to Metropolis. Hidden Palace Zone only gives collapsing platforms, an elevator, tube pipes, and breakable gems as hints towards the zone it was going to be. Maybe some kind of fantasy magic zone? Course, this is just 3am speculation.
Maybe we'll find out more about those levels from Taxman, since he did get some previously unknown R2 sprites and info from developing Sonic CD. Perhaps he'll reveal some more secrets about final level layouts or what not.
I would be absolutely SHOCKED if he ends up getting more than what we already know on Sonic 2 It kind of feels like the one game in the franchise that we got about everything feasible on
I'd say if we see anything, it would be because he gets access to some archive materials that have never been released. Like printed documentation that has been kept in SoA, or something.
Rock Zone, I'd make alot of sections crumble like Green Hill Zone, but not overload. It would be like Lion King Sega Genesis' first level. I'd make it pretty much a jump with precision game as there's some bottomless pits with bottom floors covering some of them, so you don't fall to your doom. It's a depressed atmosphere, you got dead trees in a once-full of life river now reduced to nothingness thanks to Robotnik's mining. There will be some shell enemies, and the Rhino Bots, etc. It will also have Stone-Loops, and have a section where you have to get on the non-wobbly platforms at the top while the El-Nino spreads. When you are in the El-Nino, it functions like the sand in S&K, but drags you to the right. It will have rocks that are smashable that brings powerups underneath them, and the boss would be the Egg Granite, which is a machine that can dig rock underneath, and hurl them at Sonic, dig underground, and dig a tunnel going to a section that shoots Mud with Rocks. The weakness is the rocks being the platform within Robotnik's reach. Wood Zone would be pretty much like Mushroom Hill Zone, and have drill-bot badniks on one-wheelies. The Boss would be a mini-boss that is a heavy badnik, called a heavenik that smashes a tree and uses it as a weapon. He can jump across and he can throw logs, and cut wood with his axe. His weakpoints is the wood swinging that creates a suction to Sonic, in which Sonic can jump to hit the mechanical engine and undefended areas.
Dunno about you guys/girls, but when I try to think about possible features "Rock Zone" might have had, I think about features and bosses that ended up in other levels. Like Mystic Cave boss, Hill Top raising ground/raising lava section, Sandopolis miniboss, and pretty much everything that featured in Lava Reef.
For Dust Hill I would take a page from Desert Demolition (about 2 minutes in): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65XD1UWoh3M Make it the loop gimmick level. Rock formations designed to toss you around with momentum and keep you near the very flat bottom. Traveling on top of the loops and rocks nets you small and tight platforming sections to go with the tall and thin rock formations that have been weathered away with time. Western choo choo boss because trains are awesome. It could serve as a good transition to Oil Ocean from Hilltop. Hidden Palace: Take whats there and expand, though I would keep it the Super Sonic level. You transport there after collecting all 7 emeralds and reaching the end of the previous stage only you get beamed from the goal post/boss capsule similar to the S&K Hidden palace beam. It would be a 1 act deal without a boss and you would be granted Super Sonic when you get the alter. Wood Zone: Basically this. Sonic tropes haven't entirely expanded on trees at all. Mostly vines or ruins dominate "tree" levels like Mushroom Hill and are just there as backdrop. There is Leaf Storm, but Rush design sort of botches any coherence an act may have. In my own project my first act is basically designed with what I feel wood zone should be: this kind of layered approach. The beta designs and a bunch of hacks and fangames make this level out to be a whole lot of flat, log platforms that are entirely dull and clash with the organic nature of the trope. Then they combine it with the worst enemy placement ever which could make even Dimps blush. I've never found a hack or fangame that ever deviates from this approach and I hate it every time. No one takes advantage of the curves that tree branches can be stylized to offer. Tree branch loops, tree top platforms, forest floor bottom route. Cyber City: A one act deal to replace the 3rd act of metropolis but with more of techno base feeling and less hard mechanical/workshop. More like Scrap Brain or the Advance Cyber Track with some sort of lead up to Skychase/Flying Fortress.
How would I? I've got a pretty good idea on how the lost zones would work, and for added challenge I won't scrap one of them myself, I'll use all of them. But first... Sonic 1 Scrapped Zones: Mike...what the hell are you talking about? Well, while there are not traditional lost levels like in Sonic 2 there are two noticeable pieces of concept art that showcase zones that don't really resemble any level in the final game, I'm talking about the artwork here and here, I count these as the lost levels of Sonic 1. The first one I call Sparkling Ruin Zone, it would be like if all of Marble Zone had pretty much no cave areas, mixing it with Crystal Egg and Marble Garden Zone. The second one I call Tranquil Mountain Zone, think of it as a fusion of Green Hill and Labyrinth Zone, a precurser to Aquatic Ruin if you will, having safe water to travel in or Boiling Hot Springs that hurt you like lava, along with a great eastern view in the background. I'm honestly surprised no one has ever thought of turning these two concepts into actual zones in a fangame or hack, I mean I want to and will in the future, but if any of you want to do so go ahead, besides how many different versions of lost levels from Sonic 2 have we had now am I right? Sonic 2 Scrapped Zones: Okay NOW let's get down to what people really want... Wood Zone: A lot of you have good ideas of how this zone should work, but most of you guys just scrap it outright for it being the most incomplete zone next to Rock Zone and/or because of it's placeholder look, I think that's just unfair. Now first of all the background with all the leaves and shit has got to be changed or removed, it doesn't look good I'll give you that. I like to think of this zone as the Marble Zone of Sonic 2, except instead of Lava and Caves it has more speed and some factory elements, like buzzsaws, moving treadmills and stuff. There's a good reason why we see this stuff in fangames and hacks, it gives off a lumberjack feel as you think that Eggman is trying to cut down all the trees for profit. It's not hard to imagine birds, rodents, and bugs being your enemies in these levels and an Eggmobile with an Axe or a Chainsaw on it would make a great boss fight. Winter Zone: Pretty much what Brenda Ross had in mind, a christmas level in a Sonic Game. Have snowy hills and mountains, enemy elfs or snowmen maybe, raindeer, exploding presents, just go all out with it! For music I'd be tempted to say have the most memorable part of Winter Wonderland sampled into Genesis Synth and have the rest be original, I think it would be a nice touch. Rock Zone: Now The Lost Worlds hack did what it could but considering we have NOTHING to go on with Rock Zone it's easy for people to scrap it, after all it was suppose to be the "past" version of Dust Hill and/or Mystic Cave. But I see potential in it, a Grand Canyon/Niagra Falls level with high cliffs (giving a hint of Hill Top) with aquatic lows and waterfalls, the level would have bottomless pits in it's short water areas, you'd have to be careful and maintain to stay in the upper root. It's like a Dryer Aquatic Ruin/Hill Top/Mystic Cave hybrid, complementing the upcoming zones of Mystic Cave and Dust Hill while having an identity of it's own. Dust Hill Zone: Pretty much what Tiller said, kudos on showing us Desert Demolition, it's been a long time since I played that game and I'd recommend all of you to play it. Anyway I don't have too much to say about this level as the mock ups, fangames, and hacks make a good example out of it, but not perfect. One thing they all have in common is that they are WAY TOO LONG, if only they were a tiny bit shorter I'd like them more, that and actual functioning Quick Sand would make me happy instead of that fake out pit sand. I'd think of it as the hard mode dry Emerald Hill, with SOME tiny parts of Hill Top caves as seen in the mock up or similar to say Quartz Quadrant, that and trains because Desert. Cyber/Genocide City Zone: This is the one level I WISH was in the final game, without it Metropolis just drags on unlike every other level in the game. Anyway the design of this level was later used for The Machine in Sonic Spinball so we have a solid look down unlike previous levels. I wouldn't use Metropolis Act 3's layout (except that moving platform in the end), but rather have it as a fusion of Scrap Brain and Metropolis, with the former being the dominate design (like Gigantic Angel in Sonic Pocket Adventure). Have it be one of, if not the hardest level in the game with all of Scrap Brain and Metropolis tricks and badniks. Not only that, but add several, almost, or all the Badniks from Sonic 1 in it as well! A blast from the past/call back to the previous game, making it a very deadly level, have the track be a Heavy Metal based song, make it epic! Though it would be called Cyber City Zone would it have been released, the fans would nickname it Genocide City due to it's difficulty. Hidden Palace Zone: Of all the scrapped levels, I'd call this one the closest to being a complete level, and I don't think that's opinion either. Now if this was a 1 Act Zone (and I think it should have), have it be a kinda long but tough level, make it a real challenge as I felt the layout was too easy, after all if you're playing as Sonic you're running through this level to have "God Mode" basically. Granted the Special Stages can be hard but why pull punches now after all this? Have it be one of the hardest levels in the game, starting off deceptively easy but then in the middle start raising the bar in difficulty, maybe even have Robotnik appear as a boss or not. After all if you get Super Sonic Robotnik is basically screwed, why would he NOT stop you? That and their ARE badniks in this level. Not much else to say really. So that's how I view the scrapped zones in Sonic 1 and 2, it is a shame they never got past their concepts or near completion, but maybe it was for the best. After all if Sonic 2 got ALL of it's zones in, even if you would to take Rock Zone out off the game would be just about as big or bigger then Sonic 3 & Knuckles! I'm just saying that Sonic 3 Complete would have had BIGGER shoes to fill in if those zones made it in the final, I can't imagine how different that game would have turned out of that was the case. But what we got in the end was a great game and one of the best in the series, and the Scrapped Levels will always live in our hearts, hacks, and fangames. The first attempts the community has made of them may not be the best, but I still think they count even to this day as the begining in a long line of hacks and fangames in the past, present, and in the never ending future.
Funny.. I dig up this old art today, then find this topic. This is just a R2 concept I drew back in 2011. From what I knew/saw, this is pretty much how I imagined the stage. I figured the main foreground taking place in the lush ruins of a chrome-ish futuristic city while the background would show the dessert being in the outskirts to the city.. and alongside that, would be the mountains and volcanoes.
That's AWESOME! :D Maybe the past version is like more volcano in a jungle environment and construction of huts foreground, and background the water horizon and have some waterfalls flowing at the background.
I think Rock Zone would be the hardest, yet most interesting, Zone to design for. I can't help but think of it as past Dust Hill. Maybe a quarry, with mining, pushing buttons or switches to make machines dig out new paths? Or even TNT? Something like Labrynith's, and Hydrocity's, tendency to use switches to open gates. Alternatively, or together, also use sand traps, where piles of dirt and dust are stacked because of the mining, and that you can hit switches to empty them to open new paths, or fall through them with a spindash, and into the underground. I would scrap most of Hidden Palace's work, and just redo the zone. Keep the glowing bridges, I might retheme it for something like the Labrynith Zone in older screenshots, with a huge, dark background, giving off a feeling of vast open space, a huge cavern, more themed in blue, purple and green rather than brown, around lighter crystals, jewels and rocks with a mostly straight forward path. Also, keep the Dino badniks. As for Cyber City? Theme it around the concept art and Act 3 Metropolis.
