But we have to establish something here. One thing is how the thing actually is. Another thing is how we prefer it to be. And yet another thing is how we can make the thing that actually is become the thing that we prefer it to be. Classic Sonic was just the past of Modern Sonic, but Sonic Team changed it and now he is a Sonic from another dimension. That is how it is, because Forces and Sonic Team said so. We generally disagree with this, because it should be simpler if Classic Sonic was just the past version of Modern Sonic, which was said in Generations. The split timeline is just a tool that we use to justify the change. Instead of "Classic Sonic was always from another dimension, forget Generations even if it was a well-received game and fans enjoyed it so much", we make "Classic Sonic NOW is from another dimension, because Forces said so, but he wasn't before, because Generations said so, so some split timeline happened here". Mania should not have really happened in the past of Modern Tails. Tails in Generations is not familiar to Green Hill, because he was never there before, but he went there in Mania. Also, Knuckles Chaotix should not really happened in the past of Modern Team Chaotix, because in Heroes Charmy did not know who Eggman was. You can try to make up an explanation for these plotholes, but it will be hard. So if you want to take these inconsistencies seriously, the split makes sense. If you want to take it even more seriously, Angel Island in Adventure doesn't look like Angel Island in Sonic 3K. Sonic saving Amy in Adventure (flashback) doesn't look like how it happened in Sonic CD. Even if undeniably Sonic 1-CD-2-3K somehow happened in the past of Modern Sonic. So, from that point of view, the completely segregation between Classic and Modern Sonic makes sense. But I think that, in that case, it is just exaggeration.
Personally, I feel like you would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater by just abandoning canon. Like you said, the Sonic franchise has consistently tried to honor canon but has had a few misteps. The fact that Mania's events don't seem to affect Modern Sonic at all is probably just a sign that they want to honor prior canon but also do something new which I can respect. The divide is arbitrary I agree, but no need to just up and erase everything because of it. To be clear, I wasn't discussing the "two-worlds" thing which very well might be a mistranslation at this point (sekai can mean world but it can also mean society). I was talking specifically about the fact that there appears to be a split in the timeline after Generations happened. Since others in the thread have been misinterpreting the idea of a split as "all of classic sonic happens in another timeline" I think it should be pointed out that a timeline split only means that after a certain point, Modern Sonic and Classic Sonic's history split and became different from each other. All the classic games seemingly still happened to Modern, just not stuff after the alterations in Generations like Mania. Honestly, I think Raphael has the right of it here that it is just a fan explanation that makes the most sense, but it does make sense.
I think we can say that it is more than just a fan explanation (even if it really is just that, in essence), because Christian Whitehead said it too. So it is a "sub-official" interpretation.
I like how from 1994-1999, Sega was basically giving us nothing substantial to talk about, so we got way too obsessed with the lore, world, and characters. It's like history is repeating itself...
I know this is a fan community, so obviously such matters will be looked upon through a fan's perspective. But the truth is way easier to grasp, and it's been out in plain sight for a long time. At least to me, that is. Classic Sonic was turned from a past aesthetic to a separate entity for one simple reason: fan-pandering. Ever since Generations's inception, ST realized that Classic Sonic and such could serve to milk the fandom. It's all corporate, commercial reasons. Hence Iizuka's dumb attempts at justifying this and that crazy plot. As long as they feel they can milk the Classic cast, they'll do it, regardless of previously established canon. So, in sum, to me there's only one main timeline (with most handhelds being their separate continuities). The Classic cast is just a past aesthetic, altered to something more rad when the series shifted in tone. There's been no aging, since ST always presented the cast with the same age. Ridiculous, but I accept it. And all of this applies to the previously established canon, tossed to the curb this last decade or so. That's my honest-to-goodness opinion on this whole matter. ST's screw-ups are all related to money.
Interesting thing about that: Spoiler In the Japanese version, he doesn't actually say anything about not knowing the Zone, just responding to Sonic's "does this place look familiar?" with "Hm... I guess?" Makes it far more vague about if he actually knows the place or not. See, I would like to think that, but considering what they're doing with Classic Sonic and the fact they keep referring to the planet as "Sonic's World" after Sonic Colours... And once again, the "Welcome to the World of Sonic" book firmly establishes Classic Sonic was from another dimension from the get go: It's not misinterpretation, it's SEGA messing with things. I do find it ironic, actually. SEGA had two worlds to work with in regards to Earth and Mobius via the US Origin Story. Then they changed it all to match the Japanese story. Now Iizuka is forcing us back to two worlds and very few people are happy with it. (I also find it funny that SEGA employees keep saying that the two worlds, akin to Sonic X, have been a thing since Sonic Adventure, and hence why said animé uses that explanation, while Sonic Adventure itself establishes that the animals were around since at least 4,000 years ago, and Angel Island and the Chaos Emeralds were all on Earth.)
Even if there was no classic/modern split, it's unlikely that Ray and Mighty would have been in TSR anyway. Iizuka has said that he considered Mighty and Ray to be "sealed" characters. It seems like he only brought them back for Mania at Team Mania's insistence and because they could be sectioned away in the classic games. The Chaotix were ditched in Sonic Adventure, but they brought them back with modern designs for Sonic Heroes. If they really wanted R&M back for TSR then they could have made modern versions of them. Iizuka just doesn't seem to care for these characters. In a way, that's what happened. Iizuka has said that the new games are meant to be standalone with references thrown in as easter eggs for fans and too loosely tie them together. When Shiro Maekawa was around, they would tie the games into story arcs. But since he's left that's stopped happening. I bet the reason we have the two worlds in Modern Sonic as well as the Classic/Modern split is less to tidy up the continuity, and more so they can write whatever story they want without being hampered by the past. Ken Pontac said that when he became a writer for Sonic he didn’t go and research the past Sonic stories. So they obviously don’t care about sticking to the past. It's dumb and lazy, but that's the direction they are going in.
It doesn't really matter unless they outright portray the two worlds separately, but I wish they'd just say "Mobius" already. It's weird and conspicuous to call it "Sonic's planet," or to have to constantly skirt around not naming it the way X and the movie do. We can have chili dogs and Robotnik from Ye Olde Western Canon, but we can't have Mobius? At least call it SOMETHING.
Or they could just ignore the whole two worlds shit that's never been clearly established in the games themselves anyway and revert to calling it Earth like they always used to.
Oh I firmly agree, but Iizuka seems determined to go with the interpretation. Again, they say it was going on with Sonic Adventure, when Sonic Adventure itself outright contradicts it and had the localisation team drop the two worlds aspect that the Classic Western Continuity had established in the first place. So I'm pressing X to Doubt on that claim.
Haha, that might be exactly why they skirt around it. Calling it Earth would piss people off. NOT calling it Earth would also piss people off. So it's just ambiguous: "Sonic's World." (never fear the fall) By the way, according to a chapter listing I found, that "World of Sonic" book also has a story recap section... which begins with Sonic Adventure, treating it as the first game in the canon. Or so it seems, anyway. I might try to pick this book up for myself, and see what it says. It comes with STICKERS!!! Edit: Huh? The western continuity didn't have two worlds. It just had Mobius.
Huh, neat! I think the Kintobor stuff was SO early, nobody in the US was really aware of it, but it (and other early bible stuff) factored in heavily to the UK comics. Do you have a source on that though? I've never seen anything that suggested he was originally from Earth, and traveled to Mobius. (This all could have been so much simpler if they'd just stuck with Sonic being born in Nebraska!)
It's not outright stated in the comic, but Dr. Kintobor refers to Mobius as "your planet" and refers to Earth things like "Erinaceus Europaeus", aka a European Hedgehog, and Einsteins' theory of relativity. Spoiler Considering this was written in the US, there's no chance of mistranslation. He's not of Mobius, at least.
My headcanon(nopun) is in Forces, Classic Sonic was just a figment of Tails's imagination brought about by feelings of neglect and coping with the loss of his Sonic. The official story can't be dumber than that. XD Besides, Sonic's 'lore' is such a mess there is no point in getting upset about it. His identity has been so jumbled by marketing and different creative teams over many mediums over the years that trying to tie it all together through plot alone in a meaningful way is a practice in futility. Just have fun with it as it comes out and don't sweat the plotholes, and hope the individual game presented is good on its own while still giving respect to what came before it, like the movie ironically wound up striving for.
I will sweat the plotholes because, again, before Iizuka took the helm, the Japanese continuity was perfectly intact and made sense. Things led on from one another, but in a way that didn't need explaining why this is now suddenly this. Let's look at the Mainline Adventure Era: Sonic Adventure: NPC references the events of the Little Planet and Angel Island, so Sonic CD and Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Sonic Adventure 2: Tails recieved a Chaos Emerald for saving Station Square in Sonic Adventure. Sonic Heroes: Shadow is discovered after his fall in Sonic Adventure 2, the plot is to seek Robotnik out for answers. Shadow the Hedgehog: Shadow continues to wonder about who he is as he did in Sonic Heroes and discovers his past, but opts to not let it control his future. Sonic the Hedgehog (2006): Shadow spends a few years as a G.U.N. after Shadow the Hedgehog, as noted by an NPC. Versus the Iizuka Era: Sonic Colours: now takes place on Sonic's World that was never mentioned before this game. At. All. Sonic Generations: features adventures from Sonic's past, including aforementioned Adventure Era, and introduces Classic Sonic as Sonic's younger self, as noted by Amy and Robotnik's interactions with himself, referring to the other as of the Past and of the Future respectively. Sonic Lost World: standalone adventure, no continuity references beyond Tails lying like Sonic did in Sonic the Hedgehog 2. Sonic Forces: Classic Sonic is now an alternate dimension version of Sonic, negating Sonic Generations, Sonic Adventure and any references to Green Hill Zone, as indicated by Welcome to the World of Sonic's absence of the Classic Era, yet it still uses events from those games, like the Death Egg. It also ties itself to the Adventure Era by using enemies from it: Chaos and Shadow. Iizuka needs to stop acting like continuity is toxic: it's like oxygen. It's needed, but too much or too little and it'll severely harm and even kill what needs it.
I mean, you do you but rants about how Sega is killing Sonic are as old as this community. No matter what way it is addressed it will come with tradeoffs and the way Sonic fans like to nitpick minutia, I don't think any way they go about it is going to make people happy. They didn't even manage to tie everything together with a straight reboot, and even going back as far as the classic era Sonic had a really mixed identity. The best that can be hoped for is for the next game to really capture the spirit of the franchise rather than plugging up potholes that are best forgotten in the first place.
Sonic the Fighters, the true Sonic 4, is a timeline in which Sonic defeated Metal Sonic, but could not defeat Eggman in time, thus killing them both as the Death Egg II exploded. This is the only canon I will believe. Spoiler
I don't care much about the games' continuity but the split timeline stuff is annoying to me because it's been made a franchise-wide thing. SEGA has banned IDW from letting classic and modern characters mix meaning no Mighty or Ray in the comics. Also sucks for spin-offs like TSR that they can't use classic characters.
