I'm not ranting about how SEGA is killing Sonic, I'm pointing out that continuity was fine. The problem the franchise had was the stories getting wildly out of hand. Shadow not knowing about his past, that's continuity between Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog, no one has a problem with that. That Shadow is related to aliens with absolutely no foreshadowing, that's a story issue. The Classic Sonic Trilogy is a good example of continuity and story done right, and not because it's "Sonic's greatest time" or some such nonsense. It's a good example because the continuity is moving the plot forward without suffocating it: Sonic the Hedgehog 2 and Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles are driven by the Death Egg. This is a continuous thread through it, continuity, driving the story on. The story, meanwhile, is following my rule of thumb for non story-based game plots: can you tell the story without words? In Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles' case, yes: Knuckles knocks the Chaos Emeralds out of Super Sonic and runs off with them. It establishes the character and how he's going to be opposing Sonic. He is betrayed by Robotnik, who we see steal the Master Emerald, instead of the Chaos Emeralds also residing within the altar, indicating that's the strongest of them, and we actually see the betrayal. Not a single word is spoken throughout. No text boxes, no cutscenes explaining what's happening, the closest we get is Knuckles making motions and visibly talking to Robotnik when he's stealing the Emerald, but still no text because we don't need it. That's a perfectly fine plot: the lore is (literally, in Hidden Palace Zone's case) in the background, ready to piece together for people who like to. And yes, they exist, I am one. Everything needs some level of continuity. Chopping and changing everything on a moments notice only causes confusion and irritation for anyone trying to play the games and who likes the stories. It just depends on what level of continuity is required: Iizuka seems to have decided no continuity is the best continuity. This is actively harmful. A low, background continuity is what Sonic needs, where the stories might have a plot thread between them, but otherwise Sonic is just travelling the Earth, meeting with Team Dark on occasion when in G.U.N. territory, and so on. Speaking of, are we aware that Team Dark were never part of the G.U.N. now?
I'd love to see your thoughts on how Sega can tie all of its existing plotholes together with just the background. I agree solid continuity can be great, but sometimes it is best to just ignore bad attempts at it and move forward. For example take Mania and Forces. Individually I appreciated what both brought to the table. Together their link is messy at best.
Is Iizuka not acting like continuity is bad for the series? I'm not saying to tie all the plotholes together in just the background, though I can fill plotholes if needed. I'm saying they just need to stop changing the background randomly: Classic Sonic is Past Sonic, not Suddenly Alternate Dimension Sonic Which Has Changed All References To His Era Into Massive Gaping Plotholes. Sonic the Hedgehog is an ongoing franchise: maybe have a continuing plot thread linking a couple of games, three at most, I don't need a massive story or dramatic plot to enjoy the games. But when you start actively f**king with the continuity and changing things haphazardly and without concern for how much it damages the franchise prior to it, it just indicates he doesn't really care. If you introduce an element into the franchise, don't immediately rip it out and replace it with a baked potato. Classic Sonic, he should remain past Sonic. No alternate dimensions or timelines, just basic Sonic vs Robotnik adventures, that's all that's needed and it's not like we've seen all of those. Team Dark, they work for G.U.N. Shadow is working to protect the world from threats, as he promised Maria, with the backing of a military. We don't need to know that every game, just have him protect the world, maybe call in assistance like "I've called in some friends to provide a distraction while we sneak into Eggman's factory." Vague references to continuity, but keep it in the background. That's all that's needed.
I do wonder if Sonic X's success was what caused the games adopting the two worlds thing? That cartoon did have an impact, especially in markets where Sonic wasn't big like some countries in Latin America, so maybe that's why they went with it in the games canon. Sonic X did introduced elements that immediately starting appearing in the games so it makes sense to me. About the timeline/dimension split, I don't like it, it doesn't make sense, and it complicates continuity more instead of making it simpler. Like I said in previous threads, there's nothing stopping Classic Sonic having an infinite amount of adventures after S3&K and before going on his trip that takes place before SA. The only thing I can think of is if they kill off a character, completely destroy an established location like Angel Island or Chaos appears in a Classic game. And I honestly don't see Sonic Team ever doing that.
Doubtful. Sonic X aired in 2003: the TWS only became a thing come Sonic Colours referring to the world as Sonic's World some seven years later, and that was also the game where the voice cast was changed from the Sonic X cast. Actually, when was the movie pitched?
I doubt it's anything to do with success. Sonic Team seem to pick up ideas from other media (e.g. the Robotnik name, Chili dogs). Although I do wonder: Did the two worlds thing come from Sonic X (like Sonic's blue Eyelids seem to have come from) or was the two world thing buried in a game design document and picked up by the anime (much like how Sonic X uses dialogue from the president that was cut in SA2).
Doubtful. Sonic was born on Christmas Island, South Island was floating in the ocean, hence why it's not mapped as it keeps moving, etcetc. Lot of background lore indicating that the world was always Earth in Japan.
Nothing in the Adventure games suggests anything about the cast coming from a new world. Amy is established to have been in Station Square for a while, the Humans talk about the events of the Classic Era as crises, the Echidna are established to have existed in the world 4,000 years ago, etcetc. So neither the Classics or the Adventure Era hint at two worlds. Most likely Sonic X's two worlds concept was an attempt to draw Western eyes to it. I'm sure a few people were interested in seeing Mobius' 'return' after the games nixed the concept.
It could be that maybe it did come from a game design document, that is still a possibility. Also, Sonic X didn't give Sonic his blue eyelids. That's been around since the Adventure era:
Well until we see such a document, I'm still going to have to say no, and it's more likely just an attempt to draw in western viewers who were used to the idea of Mobius and Earth being separate planets. Perhaps any document that does have it was considering the same idea, but as far as I can see it was just Robotnik and Chili Dogs that were brought over with the continuity correction.
Sonic Team seems to have considered Sonic Adventure to be dividing line for several years now. At Summer of Sonic 2011, Planete-Sonic asked Iizuka about the cameos in Sonic Generations - Fang, Ray, Bark etc. and if they would be re-introduced to the main series: It's at the 15 minute mark, in case a Japanese speaker wants to give it a listen and see if there was any nuance missed by the interpreter. But basically Iizuka says that those characters are previous to Sonic Adventure, and they don't really use them any more, but as Sonic Generations was for the 20th anniversary, a special occasion, they included those cameos to put a smile on fans' faces. As you mentioned about Team Chaotix in Sonic Heroes, Iizuka considered those versions to be completely new characters. EGM: Team Chaotix's gameplay is quite different than the other three teams'. Why did you decide to bring back these characters and give them fun, silly goals like rounding up hermit crabs? Takashi Iizuka: In my mind, I didn't bring back the Team Chaotix characters from the past -- instead, they're new characters who happen to fit into the game. I wanted to create at least one team that was totally different from how Team Sonic talks and acts. Those three characters, Charmy, Espio, and Vector... they're so unique in their actions, personalities, and goals. They add a lot of flavor and variety to the overall picture. There's also the fact that those characters have never been used by Sonic Team -- we weren't involved with Knuckles Chaotix; some other internal sega Development team did that. So it's not a matter of bringing up old characters... we recreated those characters from the ground up. We want Sonic to be Sonic, and for the others to be supporting characters. I'm very happy with the way Team Chaotix turned out, so I hope they'll be brought back to another title in the future. You'll see more of them! Kevin Eva once mentioned that Sonic Team didn't want the 32X Chaotix game to be mentioned on the Sonic City site. So I think it's fair to say that the Sonic Team of 2003 didn't hold Chaotix 32X in high regard, or consider it to be canon. And if they didn't consider Chaotix to be canon, then I doubt they felt any obligation to the arcade and Game Gear titles either, or Sonic Spinball. You can kind of see a hint of it in the passage above, ("We want Sonic to be Sonic, and for the others to be supporting characters."), but I think Iizuka (possibly Naka) once said in a panel or interview that the pre-Adventure games had a lot of similar cool guy Sonic-like characters. I vaguely recall a statement along the lines of "the Chaotix were like that too until we updated them". Maybe it was a Summer of Sonic? I think it should be considered similarly to how DC Comics handles its continuity reboots. Crisis on Infinite Earths was a line in the sand for their continuity, but rather than being a completely blank slate, they kept some things from before and altered others. Some characters were rebooted, others weren't, some had their origins revised but the rest of their adventures remained, the Justice Society now "always" existed in the same universe as the Justice League, etc. Sonic Team used Sonic Adventure to update, change and standardise a lot of things. Amy certainly isn't 8 years old in that flashback, yet that was her age in Sonic CD. When Sonic Adventure came along, she was suddenly 12. Knuckles' age also changed, from 15 to 16, but Tails remained 8. Iizuka was asked about the Super Emeralds at Sonic Boom 2013 (19:40-ish): This is another one where it might be useful if someone could offer a word-for-word translation, because Iizuka says "classic series" at one point, which the interpreter skips over. The question was framed from a story perspective, but Iizuka only gave a real world answer: the Super Emeralds were created for the lock-on Sonic 3 & Knuckles, but because they ended up with so many emeralds they tidied things up with Sonic Adventure. The emerald altar could be seen as another change for the series. In Sonic 3 & Knuckles it was in the Hidden Palace Zone, but in Sonic Adventure there's a completely different emerald altar outside in the open, that's been around for 3000 years. What happened to Hidden Palace Zone? Never explained. Segabits had a podcast interview with Kiel Phegley, who wrote the Tales of Terror and Race Against Chaos books for Penguin. He gave some behind the scenes info (23:43): "The base that Sega kind of gave was, and I think it was the 2006, y'know, when they did the - I think it was 2006* - when they did the redesign and Sonic got a little taller. They were like, okay, this is ground zero. And so long as you're not telling any stories that contradict that kind of base line canon that we set as "this is the standard canon going forward", that's what you want to do." *The interviewer mentioned the 2006 game earlier in the podcast, but "when they did the redesign and Sonic got a little taller" indicates that Phegley iis referring to Sonic Adventure.
I've said before, it's more likely they just didn't have the time nor space to make classic era models or footage for what amounts to less than a minute of screen time. We otherwise have the classic designs in Casinopolis, and the classic Robotnik design in the Egg Carrier, indicating there is a connection. Unless everyone thinks the Little Planet became Windy Valley and the Egg Carrier?
Thank you, I've been wondering that for the longest time. Nice to see an interview address it. Not actually a lore-related thing, but still something I've wanted to know for a long time.
See I pretty much agree with this, unfortunately though we're lumped with the current situation which hasn't done the health of the community or the continuity much good. Though honestly, the latter is overblown. There are two possibilities I see here - one, Sonic just forgot the specifics of Classic being from the past and just said 'dimension', or two, he possibly said it meaning the fourth dimension - said to be time - as postulated by Tracker in his recent timeline chart on Twitter. That's actually really interesting, I had no idea about little script differences like that. Speaking of which, just to be sure, the Japanese script for Forces also says 'dimension', right?
It says it once: Tails begins to ponder if the dimensions are starting to break to the Phantom Ruby. Otherwise, he refers to Classic Sonic as from another world. Intent is clear, though. Spoiler
Honestly? I think that's pretty vague by comparison. I've seen 'another world' used to refer generically to another time or place in translations before, and the quote about 'dimensions' seems a lot less definitive about where Classic is from to me. I'm not saying for definite one way or the other but it seems a lot less cut and dry in the Japanese script.
Sonic Rivals 2 does something similar, actually. Silver refers to the future as "my world" and the present as "your world" when talking to Espio. Spoiler It's what I'm personally pretending to be the case.
I think another important point about the Sonic CD flashback in Adventure is that hardly anyone played CD. Most people had only played Sonic 1, 2, 3 and K. So at the time, a little incontinuity in the models and environment would hardly have been noticed. When I played Adventure back in 1999, I knew that Sonic CD was Sonic vs Metal Sonic because that's how the game was marketed, but I had no idea what Little Planet was. When I saw the flashback I assumed it might have had something to do with Sonic CD and thought little of it.
Probably they simply didn't bother to create other models for Amy and Sonic just for a single and unimportant flashback.
