Project Needlemouse: old threads

Jayextee · Sep 10, 2009

Dark Sonic said:

(but not another labryinth... never again)
Click to expand...

Hating on one of the best zones there, bub. Labyrinth was a welcome change of pace and challenge, and is well-designed; a good player can get through the entire zone needing only ONE air bubble (hell, TAS does it without ANY).

OSM · Sep 10, 2009

Dark Sonic said:

Ever since Sonic Adventure in the 3D games, Sonic has died the second he has submerged in water. I want to see another hydrocity or chemical plant please (but not another labryinth... never again)
Click to expand...

Sonic Advance 1, 3, and Rush had water levels, but I couldn't agree more with your statement. I would absolutely love to see another Zone along the lines of Hydrocity or Chemical Plant again. Incredibly iconic zones/themes that haven't been used to their fullest potential in ages, SEGA really has an entire treasure trove of ideas they could use in this game.

Also, I like everything about Sonic 1, Labyrinth Zone included! All the Zones in Sonic 1 had fantastic variety and a wonderful change of pace.

Blue Emerald · Sep 10, 2009

Chaos Knux said:

*bows to Blue Emerald* Congratulations. Now If you want, I can e-mail that post to SEGA's suggestion box.
Click to expand...

You may if you so choose. Though, I should probably add "No Homing Attack or Sonic Boost, use Insta-Shield and Super Peel-Out instead," just to be safe.

Kurosan · Sep 10, 2009

I don't know what to think... This is what we've been waiting for, as far as "new 2D Sonic game" goes, but having expectations hasn't led to much good in a long time, let alone having HIGH expectations. Plus, it looks like Sonic's shape differs, and I'm not sure I like that.

Dark Sonic · Sep 10, 2009

Kurosan said:

I don't know what to think... This is what we've been waiting for, as far as "new 2D Sonic game" goes, but having expectations hasn't led to much good in a long time, let alone having HIGH expectations. Plus, it looks like Sonic's shape differs, and I'm not sure I like that.
Click to expand...

No it doesn't. It fits with the original logo perfectly

muteKi · Sep 10, 2009

Seriously. It's the original logo with a photoshop filter over it. (Well, basically.)

Asher · Sep 10, 2009

Blue Emerald said:

1) Do NOT add new characters: You already have more than enough characters to work with. You definitely have no need to make more, and apparently it is in your company's best interest to add more depth and purpose to the characters already at your disposal. If you must add characters to this game, I would ask that you start working on the Sonic characters from the early '90s that have otherwise been ignored. Try working on Mighty the Armadillo, Ray the Flying Squirrel, Fang the Sniper, Heavy & Bomb, Metal Knuckles, or even Bean the Dynamite. Of course, Tails and Knuckles have already been at the forefront of your attention, so I don't ask that you abandon these two important characters, but otherwise work these characters appropriately into their respective places in the classic Sonic lore.

I totally agree with this 100%, I'd be happy with just Sonic, Knuckles and Tails... no one beyond Shadow. Due to the much advanced capabilities of todays systems, I could see there being a choice of 6 characters, possibly: Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, Amy and A Chaotix Member. Thinking about it, you could just start of with Sonic or S, T & K, and unlock other characters as you go though... that would be a new feature I wouldn't mind having.

2) Go back to the original Badnik designs: In the beginning, Dr. "Eggman" Robotnik encapsulated innocent animals known as "Flickies" into creature-like robots called "Badniks." As of late, your more recent games have abandoned this concept for a more lifeless or android-like approach to Robotnik's creations. If you intend to stay close to the classic design, Badniks must be brought back to the animal-like design -- a design which actually brought more personality to the game. The android approach should only be restricted to Robotnik's "Metal" series, by which I refer to Metal Knuckles, Bionic Sonic (Sonic 2), Metal Sonic (Sonic CD), and Mecha Sonic (Sonic & Knuckles).

Agree totally, also, like before, make the badniks sort of specific to the zone (eg, wasp style badniks in grassy zones, fish style badniks in water zones). Basically, don't make all badniks generic.

3) Do not implement alien creatures into the game: No Iblis, no Gaia, no Dark Brotherhood, no chaos monsters from the center of the earth, none of that. The only enemies that Sonic and his friends need to combat are Dr. Robotnik and his wacky mechanical creations, and nothing more.

For the most part yes, although I wouldn't mind a cameo, or one boss battle with Chaos, he seemed to actually fit in the Sonic universe quite well. But overall, Robotnik is the main antagonist.

4) It's not all about speed: If you look at the Genesis Sonic games of old, you'll realize that the levels were never really all about speed. We never wanted Sonic to run at 300 miles per hour, and as a matter of fact, this high speed actually ruined the level design of recent games. It's much too easy to smack into spikes or other hazards when running that fast. The great Sonic levels of old were all about exploration. The speed was not only a reward for the player's skill, but it was also used as a superpower to either blast through areas quickly or to activate some environmental objects. The classic games' Time Bonus was meant to be a reward for the player's mastery of getting through the level as quick as possible. Speed was never mandatory, it was rewarded. Take Sonic 3 or Sonic CD, for example. The levels had so many hidden rooms and routes that, when explored, led to fantastic discoveries and great rewards. I ask that the development team at Sega pay close attention to the designs of the levels from Sonic 1-3, CD, and Sonic & Knuckles. Make each zone an adventure, not an obstacle course.

I agree, the entire game should me about exploration, but, don't forget to add some areas where you can use your speed (I remember there being a great example of an area where you could really pick up speed without comprimising the depth of the rest of the level in Mushroom Hill Zone Act 2.)

5) Keep the cutscenes and voice acting to a minimum: If you look at the games Sonic the Hedgehog 3, Sonic & Knuckles, and Sonic the Hedgehog CD, you'll notice that the game had a great way of telling the story without lengthy cutscenes or any amount of dialogue. Cutscenes always played themselves out as you progressed through a level, or in the case of Sonic CD, cutscenes played themselves out after the title screen and appeared once the game was won. The most dialogue ever used in the early '90s Sonic platformers was a triumphant "Yes!" from Sonic when he obtained an extra life, or "I'm outta here" if he was left tapping his foot for too long, and that was all the dialogue we needed, and yet we could still enjoy the game. However, if you ever do consider using voices in this game, I personally ask that you try to find someone who can emulate the Sonic voice from Sonic CD, but that decision is up to you.

Agreed, cutscenes like the ones you had in Sonic 3 when you were playing as Sonic and you encountered Knuckles were perfect, they were detailed enough to add to the story as much as they needed to, but didn't ruin the pace of the game by taking forever.

6) Use the classic surreal designs from the early Sonic games: No more of these semi-realistic designs that you used in Unleashed, Sonic 2006, and the Adventure series. Make them as weird and surreal as possible. Look at the designs in Sonic CD and Knuckles' Chaotix for reference. They were vivid, surreal, unpredictable, and yet they felt natural to Sonic's world. This is the design style you should be striving for.

Again, athough I'm a little cautious at the art on needlemouse, it looks surreal, but not the sort of surreal it should be, the stuff on needlemouse looks like it just fell out Tim Burton's head.

7) Make special gimmicks for each zone: I really don't want to see a grinding rail, a dash ring, or a dash pad in every single zone like there was in Sonic Adventure 2 and every one of the other Sonic games that came after it. Springs and spikes should be the only staples to be used in every zone, because they work and they work well. Create wild and fun new gimmicks that fit well with each zone's different environment. Look at the gimmicks in the early '90s Sonic platformers for reference.

Agreed.

8) Ditch Green Hill Zone for good: I noticed on your website that you are using three-dimensional models that look like pieces from Green Hill Zone. Do not make another Green Hill! Your company has already done this level to death in countless Sonic games (including re-releases), so it really needs to go away. It's had a good run, but you need to go beyond Green Hill Zone for classic Sonic level design.

Eh... I don't mind if they stray away from the Green Hill cookie cutter, infact if may be a bit refreshing, but they need a grassy, sunny opening level, its a Sonic staple.

9) Music needs to sound like classic Sonic music: I strongly discourage use of heavy metal, songs with lyrics (like the ones from the Adventure series), or the new-age techno-like tracks that appeared in Sonic 2006. I encourage you to strive for upbeat, '90s pop-style tracks; these were the kinds of tracks found in the classic Genesis Sonic games, and were one of the games' major high points. These songs are still upbeat and catchy to this day. I suggest hiring Masafumi Ogata, Naofumi Hataya (both of Sonic CD fame), and Howard Drossin to write these songs for you. You could even try hiring Spencer Nilsen; his tracks in the US version of Sonic CD weren't half-bad at all. Just stick to the '90s style of music, and I promise that you'll be fine.

Agree totally, the only music I wouldn't mind deviating from that formular is the boss theme (a militant, orchestral / brass sound) and mabye the final zone

Also, make the music appropriate to the zone, don't just have generic music with lyrics that seem to fit like some games... hell, have no lyrics at all.

10) No required Super Sonic levels: Levels played as Super Sonic should only be a bonus for the player, as it was in Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Games like Sonic Rush have been chastised for requiring the player to collect all of the Chaos Emeralds to beat the game. Back in the day, the emeralds would grant the player a bonus reward at the end of the game. Keep it this way, as a challenge for Sonic players to get even better.

Agreed, and no 'shark jumping' super forms such as werehogs... I'd be happy with just the one super form, however, if there are enough zones, as there were in Sonic 3&K, to warrant more than one super form, the only possible ones I'd want to see are hyper and mabye a dark one if it serves a purpose. Also, if one character has a super mode, give the others super modes, they should be rewardedfor the same effort put in.

11) Do not rush this game!: If your development team ever needs more time to perfect this Sonic game, then by all means, we encourage you to push back the release date! So many of Sega's recent Sonic games have either been buggy or sub-par because of rushed release dates. If you need the time to make this game incredible, then please, take all the time you need. It should only become better because of it.

Agreed

I am not saying any of this to criticize Sega. I am a longtime fan of Sonic, and I only wish to help the development team to make the best Sonic game possible. Sonic was always at his best in a wild and fantastic 2-D adventure of speed, wonder, and exploration. My greatest wish for the development team behind the Needlemouse Project is that they live up to the standards of the classic Sonic games from the Sega Genesis era, which are without question the greatest platform games ever created, and truly define what video games are all about.

Rant over.
Click to expand...

Looking at that, and assuming it is gonna be in the style of the old school 2D's, how many zones do you think we will have and how many playable characters do you think there will be? I imagine with the space and the technological advances, we'd see more than 6 zones.

Also, I see different zones and characters being possible DLC if its released on X-Box / PS3.

Also, a quick question to anyone who would know... Sonic the Comic I no longer available in England, but is the USA comic still available, only asking because I remember that the story portrayed in the games was portrayed along side its release in the English comic... if they did that in the past with the american one, it would be pretty cool if they did that again.

jasonchrist · Sep 10, 2009

Asher said:

Blue Emerald said:

1) Do NOT add new characters: You already have more than enough characters to work with. You definitely have no need to make more, and apparently it is in your company's best interest to add more depth and purpose to the characters already at your disposal. If you must add characters to this game, I would ask that you start working on the Sonic characters from the early '90s that have otherwise been ignored. Try working on Mighty the Armadillo, Ray the Flying Squirrel, Fang the Sniper, Heavy & Bomb, Metal Knuckles, or even Bean the Dynamite. Of course, Tails and Knuckles have already been at the forefront of your attention, so I don't ask that you abandon these two important characters, but otherwise work these characters appropriately into their respective places in the classic Sonic lore.

I totally agree with this 100%, I'd be happy with just Sonic, Knuckles and Tails... no one beyond Shadow. Due to the much advanced capabilities of todays systems, I could see there being a choice of 6 characters, possibly: Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, Amy and A Chaotix Member. Thinking about it, you could just start of with Sonic or S, T & K, and unlock other characters as you go though... that would be a new feature I wouldn't mind having.

2) Go back to the original Badnik designs: In the beginning, Dr. "Eggman" Robotnik encapsulated innocent animals known as "Flickies" into creature-like robots called "Badniks." As of late, your more recent games have abandoned this concept for a more lifeless or android-like approach to Robotnik's creations. If you intend to stay close to the classic design, Badniks must be brought back to the animal-like design -- a design which actually brought more personality to the game. The android approach should only be restricted to Robotnik's "Metal" series, by which I refer to Metal Knuckles, Bionic Sonic (Sonic 2), Metal Sonic (Sonic CD), and Mecha Sonic (Sonic & Knuckles).

Agree totally, also, like before, make the badniks sort of specific to the zone (eg, wasp style badniks in grassy zones, fish style badniks in water zones). Basically, don't make all badniks generic.

3) Do not implement alien creatures into the game: No Iblis, no Gaia, no Dark Brotherhood, no chaos monsters from the center of the earth, none of that. The only enemies that Sonic and his friends need to combat are Dr. Robotnik and his wacky mechanical creations, and nothing more.

For the most part yes, although I wouldn't mind a cameo, or one boss battle with Chaos, he seemed to actually fit in the Sonic universe quite well. But overall, Robotnik is the main antagonist.

4) It's not all about speed: If you look at the Genesis Sonic games of old, you'll realize that the levels were never really all about speed. We never wanted Sonic to run at 300 miles per hour, and as a matter of fact, this high speed actually ruined the level design of recent games. It's much too easy to smack into spikes or other hazards when running that fast. The great Sonic levels of old were all about exploration. The speed was not only a reward for the player's skill, but it was also used as a superpower to either blast through areas quickly or to activate some environmental objects. The classic games' Time Bonus was meant to be a reward for the player's mastery of getting through the level as quick as possible. Speed was never mandatory, it was rewarded. Take Sonic 3 or Sonic CD, for example. The levels had so many hidden rooms and routes that, when explored, led to fantastic discoveries and great rewards. I ask that the development team at Sega pay close attention to the designs of the levels from Sonic 1-3, CD, and Sonic & Knuckles. Make each zone an adventure, not an obstacle course.

I agree, the entire game should me about exploration, but, don't forget to add some areas where you can use your speed (I remember there being a great example of an area where you could really pick up speed without comprimising the depth of the rest of the level in Mushroom Hill Zone Act 2.)

5) Keep the cutscenes and voice acting to a minimum: If you look at the games Sonic the Hedgehog 3, Sonic & Knuckles, and Sonic the Hedgehog CD, you'll notice that the game had a great way of telling the story without lengthy cutscenes or any amount of dialogue. Cutscenes always played themselves out as you progressed through a level, or in the case of Sonic CD, cutscenes played themselves out after the title screen and appeared once the game was won. The most dialogue ever used in the early '90s Sonic platformers was a triumphant "Yes!" from Sonic when he obtained an extra life, or "I'm outta here" if he was left tapping his foot for too long, and that was all the dialogue we needed, and yet we could still enjoy the game. However, if you ever do consider using voices in this game, I personally ask that you try to find someone who can emulate the Sonic voice from Sonic CD, but that decision is up to you.

Agreed, cutscenes like the ones you had in Sonic 3 when you were playing as Sonic and you encountered Knuckles were perfect, they were detailed enough to add to the story as much as they needed to, but didn't ruin the pace of the game by taking forever.

6) Use the classic surreal designs from the early Sonic games: No more of these semi-realistic designs that you used in Unleashed, Sonic 2006, and the Adventure series. Make them as weird and surreal as possible. Look at the designs in Sonic CD and Knuckles' Chaotix for reference. They were vivid, surreal, unpredictable, and yet they felt natural to Sonic's world. This is the design style you should be striving for.

Again, athough I'm a little cautious at the art on needlemouse, it looks surreal, but not the sort of surreal it should be, the stuff on needlemouse looks like it just fell out Tim Burton's head.

7) Make special gimmicks for each zone: I really don't want to see a grinding rail, a dash ring, or a dash pad in every single zone like there was in Sonic Adventure 2 and every one of the other Sonic games that came after it. Springs and spikes should be the only staples to be used in every zone, because they work and they work well. Create wild and fun new gimmicks that fit well with each zone's different environment. Look at the gimmicks in the early '90s Sonic platformers for reference.

Agreed.

8) Ditch Green Hill Zone for good: I noticed on your website that you are using three-dimensional models that look like pieces from Green Hill Zone. Do not make another Green Hill! Your company has already done this level to death in countless Sonic games (including re-releases), so it really needs to go away. It's had a good run, but you need to go beyond Green Hill Zone for classic Sonic level design.

Eh... I don't mind if they stray away from the Green Hill cookie cutter, infact if may be a bit refreshing, but they need a grassy, sunny opening level, its a Sonic staple.

9) Music needs to sound like classic Sonic music: I strongly discourage use of heavy metal, songs with lyrics (like the ones from the Adventure series), or the new-age techno-like tracks that appeared in Sonic 2006. I encourage you to strive for upbeat, '90s pop-style tracks; these were the kinds of tracks found in the classic Genesis Sonic games, and were one of the games' major high points. These songs are still upbeat and catchy to this day. I suggest hiring Masafumi Ogata, Naofumi Hataya (both of Sonic CD fame), and Howard Drossin to write these songs for you. You could even try hiring Spencer Nilsen; his tracks in the US version of Sonic CD weren't half-bad at all. Just stick to the '90s style of music, and I promise that you'll be fine.

Agree totally, the only music I wouldn't mind deviating from that formular is the boss theme (a militant, orchestral / brass sound) and mabye the final zone

Also, make the music appropriate to the zone, don't just have generic music with lyrics that seem to fit like some games... hell, have no lyrics at all.

10) No required Super Sonic levels: Levels played as Super Sonic should only be a bonus for the player, as it was in Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Games like Sonic Rush have been chastised for requiring the player to collect all of the Chaos Emeralds to beat the game. Back in the day, the emeralds would grant the player a bonus reward at the end of the game. Keep it this way, as a challenge for Sonic players to get even better.

Agreed, and no 'shark jumping' super forms such as werehogs... I'd be happy with just the one super form, however, if there are enough zones, as there were in Sonic 3&K, to warrant more than one super form, the only possible ones I'd want to see are hyper and mabye a dark one if it serves a purpose. Also, if one character has a super mode, give the others super modes, they should be rewardedfor the same effort put in.

11) Do not rush this game!: If your development team ever needs more time to perfect this Sonic game, then by all means, we encourage you to push back the release date! So many of Sega's recent Sonic games have either been buggy or sub-par because of rushed release dates. If you need the time to make this game incredible, then please, take all the time you need. It should only become better because of it.

Agreed

I am not saying any of this to criticize Sega. I am a longtime fan of Sonic, and I only wish to help the development team to make the best Sonic game possible. Sonic was always at his best in a wild and fantastic 2-D adventure of speed, wonder, and exploration. My greatest wish for the development team behind the Needlemouse Project is that they live up to the standards of the classic Sonic games from the Sega Genesis era, which are without question the greatest platform games ever created, and truly define what video games are all about.

Rant over.
Click to expand...

Looking at that, and assuming it is gonna be in the style of the old school 2D's, how many zones do you think we will have and how many playable characters do you think there will be? I imagine with the space and the technological advances, we'd see more than 6 zones.

Also, I see different zones and characters being possible DLC if its released on X-Box / PS3.

Also, a quick question to anyone who would know... Sonic the Comic I no longer available in England, but is the USA comic still available, only asking because I remember that the story portrayed in the games was portrayed along side its release in the English comic... if they did that in the past with the american one, it would be pretty cool if they did that again.
Click to expand...

Sonic the Comic no longer available in england?

Obviously you've never been here... Sonic The Comic Online

Enjoy!

I wonder what they'll make of all this. I really enjoyed the whole death egg saga and the brotherhood of metallix stories!

Tweaker · Sep 10, 2009

NintendoBrad said:

Also, please have Naofumi Hataya do the soundtrack. That would be perfect.
Click to expand...

Totally agreed. Hataya has produced some of the best music in any video game ever released; Sonic CD is simply among his resume of complete masterpieces. The kind of soundscape in that game utterly defined Sonic musically, and it would be a huge loss if such a level of quality weren't present in Needlemouse.

It's probably just going to be Kumatani, Nanba and Ohtani again, though. Not like that's an inherently bad thing, of course, but it's not the same as a brand new 90s pop-esque soundtrack.

jasonchrist · Sep 10, 2009

*EDIT* Funny I mentioned the brotherhood of Metallix, it seems they're back in Tails latest strip (after about 14 years).

2WaterGuns · Sep 10, 2009

Hah, watch as they make two separate soundtracks again. :v:

Asher said:

Also, a quick question to anyone who would know... Sonic the Comic I no longer available in England, but is the USA comic still available, only asking because I remember that the story portrayed in the games was portrayed along side its release in the English comic... if they did that in the past with the american one, it would be pretty cool if they did that again.
Click to expand...

They still do that, but not for major releases, and nothing more than just setting up the story of the game. The last time Archie made a full comic tie-in with a major Sonic game would be the original Sonic Adventure.

Enzo Aquarius · Sep 10, 2009

K2J said:

Hah, watch as they make two separate soundtracks again. :v:

Asher said:

Also, a quick question to anyone who would know... Sonic the Comic I no longer available in England, but is the USA comic still available, only asking because I remember that the story portrayed in the games was portrayed along side its release in the English comic... if they did that in the past with the american one, it would be pretty cool if they did that again.
Click to expand...

They still do that, but not for major releases, and nothing more than just setting up the story of the game. The last time Archie made a full comic tie-in with a major Sonic game would be the original Sonic Adventure.
Click to expand...

Nonetheless, every Sonic game that comes out (after Adventure) has had a mini-side comic to give the readers a sneak-peak into the game (IE - Black Knight). When this comes out, I am almost certain Archie will make a mention of it, whether it be in the main Sonic the Hedgehog comic or in Sonic Universe...

...that's actually an idea. I wouldn't be surprised if Universe made an arc based on the game.

Lobotomy · Sep 10, 2009

I...

I.

Holy shit.

I just fucking wigged dick just now.

You're on my wantlist.

When I saw the little video of the project, I was flipping my balisong and literally squeezed it until it broke.

I cannot not get this.

Asher · Sep 10, 2009

Sonic the Comic no longer available in england?

Obviously you've never been here... Sonic The Comic Online

Enjoy!

I wonder what they'll make of all this. I really enjoyed the whole death egg saga and the brotherhood of metallix stories!
Click to expand...

I have actually been on that site, and they do a good job, but its not the same .

Solid SOAP · Sep 10, 2009

Secret Bonus said:

Of course people'll probably complain about it being too short or something, of course that was the reason why we got the Werehog in the first place!
Click to expand...

What I'm hoping for with this game is a relatively short adventure, about 3-5 hours, maybe more like 10 hours, when played just as Sonic if you blast through the game (More would be welcome, but that's just a realistic estimate), not counting any potential side things to do (Such as collect the Chaos Emeralds!). But, under certain circumstances, whatever they may be, you can unlock/play as Tails and Knuckles, perhaps others as well (I'm hoping for a purely classic cast of characters for this game, but in all honesty, characters like Shadow wouldn't be entirely unwelcome if they didn't butt into the story too much and just act as unlockables), and they either have their own little side of the game's "story" or just act as unlockables to play in levels with. Playing as them opens up new paths to find in each level that Sonic can't get to.

Blue Emerald · Sep 10, 2009

Afti said:

If those are ingame renders, it seems to be 2.5D...

That looks vaguely like text. Anyone able to make something out?

EDIT: No flash, just a jpeg.

Click to expand...

Going back to this post, I do vaguely see the phrase "Feb. 10"

So maybe it's being released in February 2010?

Asher · Sep 10, 2009

Also may I add, Sonic, Tails and Knuckles are all similar in their controls (when it comes to 2D games), but each have different abilities that make it worthwhile playing as them... if someone like Shadow is in there, don't just clone Sonics controls....

... Then again, I don't want to see any Badniks getting shot...

(well... unless a certian 'sniper' is doing it)

Rika Chou · Sep 10, 2009

Feb 10th? God I hope not, they need to take their time on this. I also hope that that is not how the art looks in game, the more I see it, the more I dislike it.

Anyway, wake me up when we have some actual news about this game. 35 pages and all we have is a teaser site and trailer. There should be a locked topic with only news posted on it, so I don't have to shift through all this mess.

Lanzer · Sep 10, 2009

Holy crap! theres a user viewing orgy here!!

So, sonic has a new game, IN 2D? wow...thanks sega now im sucked in again.

Vaiz · Sep 10, 2009

I don't know how people are pulling letters/numbers out of their ass from that image. None but maybe the first render look anything like letters. The last one is a loop, therefore it looks like an O or 0, but that's a given. Loops are round. So are O's and 0's.

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