Sonic - Code Gray

I love the music the way it is was. I think it sounds really metal. Sure it could use a little bit of work but honestly I think its worth fixing, not dropping. As for the rest of it, the ghz boss can be a little tedious if the swing manages to match up with the swinging ball in just the wrong way. But I reccomend you keep going with this. GHZ background is awesome btw. Go back to the pcm, it was good stuff.

 

If this applied to any other hacking community, then we wouldn't see 95% of SMW/other hacks. If I make a Sonic hack with all the original Sonic music, is that theft too? Taking someone else's content and using it should be more of an honor if anything. Some people just make hacks to be fun, not to be a technical showoff of your skill as a hacker. This is the main reason why the Sonic hacking community saddens me sometimes. Everyone's too focused on making things pretty and technically achieving, and when someone doesn't deliver equal content then it's shunned and made fun of. For fucks sake, if you don't use disassemblies then you're basically an outcast.

Someone should make a hack called "Stolen - A Sonic Retro Tale" which is a compilation of all the greatest community-made levels, music, and gameplay mechanics. I would play it because it would be a fun hack, not to suck the creators dick.

 

Nice to know that 95% of SMW hacks are unoriginal and not worth playing, according to you.

The point of my little speech went so far over your head that it's unbelievable. Nice job failing to differentiate between professional and fan-made products in the context of this scene, as well as showing a total lack of respect to the creative minds here who can choose to consent to the use of their work. Those in the professional gaming industry who don't wish their work to be used in fan-made works can file copyright claims against us if they so desire; as such, I reserve the right to preserve ownership to my own work should I wish, as does anyone who put their own effort and creative juices into something.

You don't go around claiming ownership of someone's art just because it's "flattering," and you certainly don't consider having the unpaid fruits of your labor taken by talentless fuckwads an "honor." Or at least I don't; I don't know about you.

When have I at any point ever stated that I didn't hack for fun? When has anyone said that? You're pulling assumptions out of your ass that seem to be based less on tangible observations and more on uneducated and preconcieved notions.

This is so wrong that it's fucking blinding. Could you even name which hacks use disassemblies and which don't? Because if you had the tact and knowledge in this community to figure that out, you would have also noticed the dozens of times that I and other credible minds in the scene have continuously preached how you can have all the technical features in the world and a hack can still be shit—it's all about design. Give me a good art and layout hack over thousands of new moves and features any day; I'll be far more satisfied in the end.

Granted, technical features are not without their benefit—for example, new badniks, bosses, and objects to help enrich the unique feel and design of the level—but they are not necessary to create something enjoyable. You will not see somebody call a hack shit here for a lack of technical features here and get away with it—that has no basis, and you can make damn sure I and several others will go out of our way to make that clear.

We already have that. It's called Sonic - The Lost Land. It's pretty mediocre because the creator has little-to-no knowledge of his own, hacking-wise—he just took resources from various abandoned hacks and a few music ports and strung them together. All I feel when I play it is all those other hacks; there's nothing that makes it stand out from the original hacks they came from in any significant way.

Unoriginal design is unoriginal design. You can be unoriginal without stealing content, but stealing content also leads to unoriginal design. The two aren't mutually exclusive, but they certainly intertwine quite a bit. If I've played it before, then it's simply not going to appeal to me again the next 15 fucking times that I encounter it. Maybe you wouldn't give a shit if every hack had the same features, but I give a shit, and I know a lot of others here do as well.

What I feel is also worth noting is that a concept being used more than once does not immediately make it bad. Sonic 1 Brother Trouble makes use of the homing attack, jump dash, et al in a very similar reign and feel to Megamix. Do you know why I don't complain about it? Because not only is the move used in a unique and refreshing way, it's also accompanied by a multitude of other new features, brilliant new art and level design, and fitting music. Everything about it literally radiates quality. Why do you think the other hacks that have stolen the homing attack and other code from Megamix don't have this? Because they are very poorly designed; they have little planning or thought put into their conception. Those people care nothing about making something fun to play—they just care about trying to be the next Stealth, Nemesis, or qiuu without putting in any of the same effort. They're all about praise. They are the fucking problem—not people who want a game to be original like any sane person would.

I really don't know what your point here is, but I've seen several others from the general Acmlm's sect of the ROM hacking community echo these sentiments. Look—it's fine if you don't mind playing the same shit over and over again. That's your prerogative and I can do absolutely nothing to stop you, nor should I try. But in this community, we like to encourage true creativity and originality so each hack is unique, special, and fun. If we wanted to play more of the same thing, we'd just boot up Sonic 1 or 2 and call it a day. But we're not... because that's not what it's all about. It's about creating something new and exciting when many of us have lost hope in even SEGA to create solid, classic-styled Sonic games that we all hold so close to our hearts.

So excuse the hell out of us if we feel like making games that are worth playing... or at least excuse me, because I absolutely refuse to endorse the promotion of unoriginal, lazy tripe in this scene. Good results and good design takes hard work and dedication, not half-assed copy and paste from other sources.

 

Yeah, I would think about 5% is the good majority of actual original and enjoyable hacks that creep out of sects such as SMWCentral; by your definition. Many hacks use the same fucking SMB3 tilesets or other ones from previous hacks, but many don't care because it's fun to play regardless. This obviously makes them not worth playing many of them then according to you.

The point of my quite smaller speech went over your head as well. The fact is as you said, you guys are unprofessional fan-game makers. This does not entitle you to anything. If someone wants to use your work in another unprofessional fan-game, what makes you think you can/should stop them? You can have your tiffs and irritations, but if you had any respect for the actual hacking scene, then you'd let it pass. There really isn't anything you can do beyond sit there and whine, and who wants that behavior to clog up the scene? No one. It basically boils down to you just want to have this overlord control over what enters and leaves the Sonic scene. If it is not to your standards, CLEARLY nobody wants it.

At what part did he claim ownership of anything in this hack? I must have missed the part that said "Everything © Jdogg". If you don't want your fan-work to be possibly taken and used, either put a fucking copyright on it (Oh wait) or stop making shit, because all the bitching in the world isn't going to stop it from happening.

Sorry this hack isn't your cup of tea because it reuses your music, but it doesn't matter to me, and it obviously doesn't matter to many of the hacking scene (Excluding the Sonic scene apparently) with the amount of "unoriginal" (again in your terms) hacks out there. As I said, the majority of the Sonic hacking scene seems quite pompous and hiveminded on the whole originality concept. The scene grew on friendly fun-having, freely sharing ideas and just making something fun to play to kill time. It didn't matter what you used for your hack as long as it was enjoyable, and crazy new gameplay additions happened once in a while with a few gifted people. Call me jaded I guess, but I remember much simpler times and I think this side of the scene should take note from it. If the levels are different and fun, that's all I want.

Don't try and justify your post and then say it's alright if others do it under similar circumstances but because theirs is slightly shinier. That's blatant Goddamn hypocrisy. You didn't once comment on the level design, going so far as saying that the content "stealing" ruined the mood for the environment so you apparently don't have to say anything about how it played at all. This is because 75% of your post was complaining about "stolen" content. That is exactly what is the problem, giving useless criticisms over the most asinine shit (We actually had a name for people like this back in 2003, it was "MetaRidley". Shame few of you will understand that though). So because it doesn't have other COMPLETELY NEW FEATURES, it's okay to hate on it? It's a fucking ROM hack, not a professional game. There is nearly nothing original about it. Separate the two please when talking about "sane people" (you sure aren't falling in to that category). You would be hard-pressed to find a person who steals from other hackers just so they can get praise and be the next "Whatever". Keep following your own "uneducated and preconcieved notions" though.

Yeah, no. We may not be an embodiment of hacking anymore, but we for the majority still have the same easy-going spirit. As do many other hacking sects in fact. Take a look around, you'll notice an enormous difference in general opinions and discussion.

About the disassemblies, yeah, I have seen people pull elitist shit surrounding it before. I did overreact however because I was once treated very poorly since I wasn't using them in a hack I was once making for Sonic 2. It may have been a terrible noob hack, but I was just doing it to have fun and make a few others enjoy it too. The spirit of making something fun was there, but I was trashed in IRC because I was using Esreal's whatever and it completely turned me off from making any further progress. Note; IRC is still part of the community.

Allow me to translate; "Excuse me, I speak on behalf of the Sonic scene and know how everyone feels about everything. Now I'm going to give my own opinion which absolutely does not differentiate from the rest of the scenes opinion. We openly bash anything that reuses our content if the rest of the hack doesn't have enough SPECIAL. It is justified and legitimate, and you will obey."

I'm going to step out on this conversation though. The last hour of typing and revising this post (Which has good design and took hard work and dedication) could have been better spent, like playing this threads hack and enjoying it. Maybe I'll put some of the music in to my own hack that I might start soon. It's pretty catchy stuff and would fit my levels perfectly.

 

ORIGINAL CONTENT DO NOT STEAL

Nah, it's useless arguing with the people here. They seriously think that reusing content from Sega's games (not only Sonic, but Ristar and other Megadrive titles) is okay, while taking something from another hack is unthinkable.

 

Well, nobody is forcing you to stick around here...

That said, I can see where everyone's coming from. I'd be pretty pissed if somebody started stealing my work; It's just a douchebaggy thing to do. Granted, some hacks
DO reuse music and such from other games, but that doesn't give anybody the right to just rip it from another hack and claim it as their own.

 

Listen you assfuck, first of all you don't need to mark a work as copyright in order for it to be copywritten, all original work is implicitly copywirtten the moment it's created. The little © symbol has absolutely no legal purpose or binding and serves no other useful purpose than to clearly mark the date that the work was released and thus when it was copywritten (e.g. created).

Second of all, no amount of copyright is ever going to apply to any of these things, because you cannot copyright (implictly nor explicitly) a work that is derrived from a copywritten work, for which you do not have express consent to derrive from. That means that unless you have express permission from SEGA to derrive on their work -- nothing.. absolutely NOTHING that you create involving sonic, whether you include your own creative works or not, is your property. Any work you create that involves sonic becomes property of SEGA. There are several legal precidents to back this up - I suggest you take a look at the Copyright article on wikipedia.

This means that technically, absolutely no one here (with the exception of the few devs from SEGA that post here occasionally) own or in any way can claim ownership or authorship of anything that they've created that is sonic-related, no matter how much time they've spent on it, and no matter how much original work is in there. All SEGA has to do is say "you can't use Sonic" and the work instantly becomes theres. They don't even have to sue you for this to happen.

Now.... my opinion:

Regardless of how much or little you technically own of the hack, it's a super dick move to take someone else's music, art, or otherwise and just slap it into your own hack. I think anyone that does this should be beat the fuck up in the Costco parking lot after dark. If I worked on a hack for months and someone just came in and ripped a piece of music off it and put it in their hack, I would probably have to find them and have someone beat the shit out of them. That's not right - I don't care who's claiming or not claiming ownership.

If you're too fucking dumb to create your own music or too lazy to sequence a song or at the very least grab a song that no ones heard off a cheap ass MIDI site, then you don't deserve to have your hack played. Why should people take the time and effort to play your hack when you didn't even take the time and effort to do all the work yourself?

 

Wow, thanks for putting words in my mouth. You happen to be the one who pulled the "95%" figure out of your ass; logically speaking, if 95% are unoriginal, then 5% are original. Learn to fucking count or something.

All fan games are made unprofessionally, no matter who they fucking made by. In the context of this scene--you know, the one place where any of this fucking matters right now—people are entitled to their own original work, whether you think they are or not. That is a value that we fucking enforce and we fucking dictate. I don't give a shit how your community does it or how you would do it—in this community, we actually fucking respect peoples' effort and hard work, and don't show respect towards those who choose to disrespect that for you own benefit.

What makes me think I can stop them? If they want their hacks to be seen or appreciated in any medium that actually fucking matters, they'd do well not to be sniveling fucking thieves. If I see people being disrespectful, ignorant thieves, I will ban them, and to my very best knowledge so will every other admin in the Sonic scene. I don't know how you can so ignorantly come in here and tell us we have no rights to our own work, but we do. Fuck off and spread your retarded ideals somewhere where they're actually relevant.

Are you fucking dense? Not only have I just explained exactly what can and will happen in the context of this scene, but your delusion that somehow the only thing that actually fucking matters is what I think is also fucking idiotic. Your only interest seems to be to try and slander my own opinion because it doesn't align with your own. I'm not interested in that kind of childish bullshit, and I can't imagine anyone else here is, either.

I don't see "Tweaker" or "Team Megamix" there. I don't see "Thorn" there. But more importantly, I don't see where either of us gave him permission to do fucking anything with our work.

If I see it, I'm going to fucking stop it. Period. And it's implied that upon posting a hack that its content is of your own doing; any information to allude otherwise would have to be expressly written. It's not.

First off, if you'd actually read a single fucking word I'd said, I said that I enjoyed the hack and its original content for the most part. You gain no respect from me or from anyone else in this scene (and if someone actually respects theft, they're a piece of shit and their opinion is worth nothing) when you steal from someone else, and I will do everything in my power to make sure that nobody is taken advantage of like that.

But, you know, I'm glad you supposedly know what this entire scene is about, given that you've been involved in it for maybe a max of two years and obviously don't know that people here despise theft. But if it's okay by you, the next time you post a ROM hack or anything original, I'll be sure to copy the entirety of it and change a single byte, then rebrand it as my own work. Because, you know, it's so god damned flattering.

Don't comment on something objectively based on what a hack consists of? What? Yeah, fuck you.

Except it's not.

This entire paragraph proves that you clearly didn't read a goddamned thing I said. I very fucking clearly said that I like the hack—it has potential, it has solid layouts, and I like what he did with the first level. I don't like that some of the art has generic choices but it's okay because it's not trying to act as a selling point. The problem I have is with the music, because not only is it fucking stolen, but it doesn't fit the environments very well. But... you know, keep saying that I apparently didn't offer any criticism, because everything you say is entirely right because you apparently lack the ability to properly process information. I said nothing about features being the selling point of a hack and I in fact argued adamantly against that notion.

Finally, I'm not "hard-pressed" to find a hacker that steals from others to be the next big "legend" because that is exactly what has fucking happened on multiple fucking occasions. Are you god damned retarded? Are you incapable of reading my fucking text? Because you sure as hell seem to have ignored every single thing I said just because it isn't what you think. If you want anyone to take you or your points seriously—valid or otherwise—then you need to actually reasons and debate in a sound, logical manner. Pulling nonexistent "facts" out of your ass and making arguments against things that I never actually fucking said is not how you accomplish that.

You don't have to tell me about the Acmlm's community—I'm a regular there and I enjoy myself quite a bit. I'm also a regular of several other ROM hacking communities, among which include ROMhacking.net, board2, SMWCentral, Jul, and whatever else happens to be there. I follow them adamantly and I've based my impressions off solid observations, so don't try and act like I have no idea what I'm talking about.

While I've experienced both sides of the fence, however, you apparently seem to have experienced little of this community's workings. So before you try and make half-assed assumptions about how we work, do some fucking research.

Those people are fucking idiots, then. It is perfectly possible and feasible to create a very competent hack with ESE, hex, SonED2, or any other tool that can edit level layouts in any way whatsoever. What matters is how you use that tool—not what format the hack is made from. Anyone who has ever tried to tell you different is a shallow dipshit and their opinion isn't worth considering for any reason whatsoever.

Sorry, but I think you've translated improperly. This may be caused by your head being jammed too firmly within your rectal cavity. I suggest removing it and properly reading it, or anal leakage may occur, slipping into the slimy crevices of your already-rotting brain and incapacitating your ability to comprehend logic, reason, and clearly written English. I suggest a brain transplant, but maybe you have better ideas. You could even snatch it from someone with a more developed IQ! It'd be an honor.

Oh man! You're so fucking edgy.

Bite me.

 

The main difference I see between taking from another game and taking from a hack is the accessibility to the creator.
Its almost impossible to track down and ask permission to use the work in a professional game as they were created years ago and by multiple people. Also being a Sonic community its given that the majority of work will be based around the classics. The art/music/layouts is easily recognised and singled out when used.
But with hacks its easy to get a response about borrowing work, all you have to do is fire off an email and within the week you'll have the answer. Also its not quite so easy to spot someone elses work within a hack, which means if not properly credited might look like you're trying to pass it off as your own.

It has little to do with right or wrong, or stealing or borrowing. It simply comes down to the fact that its just polite to ask before hand.

Pesonally I have 2 full tile sets that I single handedly created pixel by pixel for a game based on a design and concept that someone else came up with. After a change in the art direction these tile sets became obsolete, so following the 'everything is fair game' logic I could use them in my own personal game... but im not going to, I know partial credit goes to the people who helped design them and I would never do anything without their permission.
So even within a team no ones reusing each others ideas and that mentality should reflect the community.

 

Ugh, this is what I hate. People who expect content to be available on a silver platter and if not, they rip it apart.
Shit like this is why I don't want to make my own hack right because all I see is literally the same, same added moves, same art from the SCAA, music from available sources such as Sonic Sanctuary or nineko's ports - most of the people who use them don't bother to fix the DAC. But some people take it too far and rip them from other games or using leaked source code. It's pathetic and I'm beginning to see such hacks reguarly, take Sonic the Hedgehog EX for example, which had stolen moves from Megamix.
Isn't it easy to make a hack with your own content without resorting to ripping off and possibly getting fucked afterwards by the staff?
There are many guides on the wiki which can help you, go use them, learn from them and modify them.

 

If you were going to steal from Tweaker and Megamix, the music choices probably aren't the best things to steal.

His own compositions are fantastic (I.e. Super Sonic racing and Sunny Shores 3), but the non Sonic music ports are meh at best.

Such is Tweakers influence though, that using Ristar music is now a commonly accepted thing in the community. Ristar music is not bad per se, but in no way does it give off a Sonic vibe.

The round clear music from Ristar that EVERYONE fucking uses though? Diabolical! It makes you think of a big fat bastard waddling off to the bakery for a pie, rather than the victory music for a dynamic, fast, blue hedgehog. Anyone that uses it deserves aids!

Rant over.


Oh and JDogg... I don't know if you composed the Crystal Egg music yourself mate, but fucking hell it's good!

 

No, it isn't. My hack is slipping into a coma because I can't do anything. There aren't guides for a lot of things and nobody is helping me, despite asking frequently. And this applies to SADX also. I ask for bug reports or for somebody to try something, I get nothing. It's almost enough for me to move back to SMWC, except that SADX needs more hacking.

 

Shit, I'm late to the party. All I can say is, Sonicandtails, you have clearly never stayed up til 7am three nights in a row surrounded by empty contraband, sobbing into an empty can of cider and pleading with your machine to just "please work this time," trying to get a new feature implemented, or a new piece of art imported correctly or to fix that one last bug. If you had, you'd recognise the value of hard work and realise that people taking these things instead of learning to do such high quality things themselves means they have shot themselves in the foot. Whilst they might have a fish for the day, come tomorrow they will look at that stick-string contraption blankly and then go and try and steal another fish from someone who actually worked for it. Yet, you seem awfully adamant that fisherman should be pleased about being mugged for their haul repeatedly on the way from the lake, that people taking the product of their toil are nowt but fun lovin' scamps.

Is talking about copying on a site based around reverse engineering someone elses work, a strange bit of doublethink? Yeah, probably, but SEGA have graciously chosen not to act against us, presumably because they have no further plans for the Genesis-era Sonic (and more importantly, have no further plans to profit from it.) Tweaker on the other hand, DOES object to use of his music without permission. Don't think that is so hard to respect.

 

Hell I'd be pissed off if someone steal anything from either Eastern Coast or Project "???".

I mean, this is one thing:

Ah, here is the song I want to port. *fixes stuff with MPF, or manually fix pointers* *fixes the DAC* *fixes the PSG* *fixes the whole song*. Whew, that was a hard work!

This is another thing:

olol here iz tha song I wantz I will get it from [hack] lol I'll get others hardwork and claim as mine lol (or: I'll get other works and make a hack to make me look awesomez)

Get what I'm trying to say? It's completely different, getting a music from [game], and import to S1, and get a Sonic 1 hack and steal the [game] music to use in your hack. In one case, you do all the stuff. In other, you just get others hard work.

QFT.

 

What the hell did you do to the Final Zone Boss?! O.O

 

Well, that was good of you, to apologise.
Now, seriously, what did you do to the FZ boss? xD
It's impossible!

 

Man the game over music cracked me up.

Okay, Sonic died, it's sad... WE GET IT!

Check it out guys, it's hilarious. Or am I just easily amused?

 

You're a better man than anyone else who has ever done this.

Look, man. I haven't used that voice edit in years. I think the last person I let use it was Puto, and the hack he put it in no longer exists. You're free to use it if you'd like, but I personally recommend something a bit more in-tune with the sort of prehistoric vibe that your background has going. Don't change music for the sake of changing it—change it for the sake of enhancing the feel and personality of the level in a positive way. That's the ticket behind video game music at its most basic essence.

If I can look around well enough, I'll see if I can find some better fits for your music; if you asked, I'm sure the rest of us can help as well. If you're short for ideas, I don't think you'll find it's too out of the question to just ask about it! I know I'm full of ideas that I've never been able to fit in anything I'm working, and I have no problem helping others provided that they have potential and they aren't total douchebags. You've proven both things to me by not only doing something wrong, but owning up to it and apologizing for it. That's all I could ever ask for—honestly. Good on you.

Like I said before, I really like where your hack is going! I just think it needs a few touches that really make it unique. You're on the right path, but it just needs a bit of refining. Keep going steady and I'm sure you'll accomplish your goal.