What do you mean? It's glaringly obvious what happened to him. Immediately after that video seen in SA2's Last story, he was executed by firing squad. What do you think "Is there anything else you wish to say?" and "Ready!" are all about?
He and Shadow were both housed on Prison Island. GUN forced him to continue working on Project Shadow there, that's what all the math written on the walls of his cell is. His revenge plan was modifying Shadow's memory so he'd do all the stuff with the ARK. I think it's maybe a little unclear (especially in the dub) but that's what that whole scene with Rouge uncovering the files is. What it doesn't explain is how the video of his execution got there. I guess Shadow had a USB drive, maybe?
I always took the math on the prison walls to mean that Gerald kept himself busy until he was executed. Where is it said that he continued working on Project Shadow? That's the main thing I'm missing here.
I dont know about the SA2 dub, but sonic x explains that after the Ark raid, GUN took him and shadow to prison island where he kept working on him.
The Gerald Robotnik working on Shadow knowledge comes from 4 things I think: 1. The game: It tells you that GUN attacked the ARK, Shadow was sent to earth, and Gerald got arrested. When we see Shadow get released he's on Prison Island. The password to release him was Maria which is personal to Gerald and it was on his diary. We know Gerald was also imprisoned there, and had calculations on his cell. When Rouge confronts Shadow about perhaps not be the original ultimate life form, the idea gets brought up his memories are fake. During the Last Story, we find out GUN shut down the ARK and Gerald didn't know what happened to Maria, but he later finds out Maria was killed. While the original script is more clear about Gerald altering his memory, both versions mention he was able to complete Project Shadow and he altered his mind after the ARK incident. He also sets up the plan to crash the ARK and use Shadow to fulfill that mission. -Either Shadow was recovered by GUN and brought back to Prison Island so Gerald could still work on him under their supervision/What we see is another Shadow that was created in Prison Island. Obviously that plot point was dropped as the character went on and eventually got their game. -But, we know Gerald had to be working on Shadow to alter his memory. Since the Ark was shut down and he found out about Maria's death later on then I think it makes it really implied is on his Island. Especially since he had to know where Shadow was sealed and how to free him to put it in his diary. Unless for some reason GUN decided to make the password Maria for whatever reasons. But it looks like Gerald found a way to create his plan while working for GUN. At least what I got when I played the game back in 2001 is that yes, GUN for whatever reason allowed Gerald to keep working on Project Shadow on Prison Island, but for whatever reason had him sealed Shadow and then executed. But not before he was able to plant the seeds to his plan. 2. The Archie SA2 adaptation has a backup story of what happened 50 years ago on the ARK, and it shows Gerald finishing up Shadow (who was found by GUN) and starting his plan. 3. In the Japanese SA2 perfect guide there's a report from Rouge that mentions this: 4. What was mentioned about Sonic X covering that arc. The game doesn't necessarily say it, but I do think it shows that's what happened. You just have to read between the lines, though it doesn't help the English localization made things more unclear. Especially when you add the supplementary material like the guide and Sonic X which I'm guessing had support from Sonic Team.
you know, come to think of it, I do wonder if it wasn't a nerf per se, but a way to make the design way, way less annoying. Yeah, it's great to speedrun all the levels, but.........imagine all that chiming, constantly, forever because the radar is picking up something. Also, some players might've had issues trying to focus on nabbing one item when they had two other items blinking at them. I could see those having been complaints about the SA1 hunting levels, so purposefully making it one at a time makes it less overwhelming for those who maybe have a harder time trying to focus when the game is all-but-screaming at you.
This..isn't engaging with the argument I'm making. whether or not you can reduce both games to being "about the same thing" is largely not relevant. There is obviously a difference from a design and intent perspective in what kind of experience the games are trying to foster using the baseline idea of being "a side scrolling action platform game". I agree, but we are talking about mechanics and the kind of experience the devs were trying to create via their implementation atm. So I don't see why this statement is being made. I.. don't know what any of this has to do with anything I said? That's...the complete opposite of what I am doing. By looking at the statements of the devs, I am applying context that I believe isn't properly being taken into consideration. I'll be transparent in saying I found this reply very confusing. Most of what was said is inline with what I have been saying, yet it is presented as though it is being shown to me as a counter to what I have been saying. I didn't say it was the very first. That goes to the idea of running through levels that are akin to rollercoaster. The idea of speedrunning however is undeniably foundational to the design philosophy of Sonic and is as close to being there from the start as it gets based on Naka's own baseline predispositions, to the point of standing adjacent to the former statement. Sonic becoming a ball by comparison was more the result of needing to accomodate a control scheme the devs were insistent on, rather than a founding aspect of the core game design. Surely though in a sort of "hierarchy" of priorities, the terrain aspect certainly comes before the rest. I would describe Sonic as it was in the classics more about terrain interaction than rolling, and maintaining a consistent pace more than just your raw speed or time. But the latter is more just my own view/observations really. Obviously devs have a certain intention behind the kind of experience they are trying to give to the player. It's something I like to hammer home quite frequently. When i talk about "game feel" i'm more talking about how it feels to interact with specific mechanics rather than the broader intended experience of the game as a whole. As for the bit about wheels in roller coasters, I sincerely doubt this is the case given the base character, (and even the character after that) didn't have anything remotely akin to a roll or wheels. When people think of something "feeling like a rollercoaster", typically they aren't thinking about wheels atall, but the feeling of exhilaration and whimsy that comes from riding the coaster. Looking at games like NiGHTS, which from what this place has taught me in large part embraces many scrapped ideas and concepts originally pitched for Sonic, this kind of design philosophy of "focusing on the experience the player feels" rather than strictly in mechanics" seems to have been the devs, particularly Ohshima's" M.O. I would even say it is part of the M.O. of Balan. Rolling would later come to solve the issue of Naka's insistence on a 1-Button control scheme, and it being used in conjunction would logically come as a consequence, rather than a basis of design in regards to concept. One that would be a natural fit for reason's you outlined, I will say though. TL;DR, there is a timeline where Sonic doesn't even roll and the game would largely have been designed the same. Though given Sonic being a hedgehog was derived from said idea of spinning to attack Yasuhara came up with, I would say we are fortunate to be in this timeline instead! xD
Right, but what I'm saying is-- anything you consider to be at the core of the game outside the most basic framework available (the purely formal one) has to refer to another framework that encapsulates it. And I'm not really getting what framework you're using because you claim you're using the devs' remarks and what we can ee in the game, but somehow rolling is talked about as foundational (even if as a consequence of another principle), and practiced as such in the games, yet it's not a foundation of Sonic's gameplay. Because then if there's a player component to it that isn't the mechanics being analyzed in isolation, you can't say things like these: Because if I understand correctly you're essentially trying to divide mechanics into crucial vs. supplementary from an interpretative stance of the devs' point of view, am I getting that right? Because, if so, there's a contradiction with claiming the kind of experience they were trying to create should validate that, because it doesn't -- as rolling to curl into a ball is very much crucial to the experience of playing Sonic, being one of the main ways to interact with the terrain, gather speed and neutralize threats. You just said it! If the "kind of experience they were trying to create" is in any way important to what should be considered crucial, then creating the expectation that Sonic or its gameplay should be fast through elements that are not mechanical is very important too -- crucial, even. Let alone rolling, which, being pervasive as it is, fills every criterion to be considered crucial to the gameplay. I went and read all of our conversation to double-check if I'm not misunderstanding you completely. Your argument was that using the physics in your favor to enhance your movement was not at the core of Sonic's game design. And you say that based on the devs' statements over the years, as well as the order we understand the decisions were taken. So you'd say, as per the other quotes in your most recent post, some of the very foundations of Sonic are: The ability to speedrun the game, and any feedback loops that lead to it; The ability to maintain a certain pace; The ability to interact with the terrain, especially slopes, to these ends; The weird thing is, how are the very pervasive motion play mechanics through which you can achieve these points not at the core of Sonic's game design? I'll concede I veered off-topic talking about many other subjects, but from my point of view what you'll consider "context that's not properly taken into consideration" will vary wildly across your posts. After all, the context we have and can be experienced in our reality is the one in which levels were designed with rolling in mind from the start even if their general, purely abstract concept wasn't. Why isn't that being taken into consideration? We do think closer than what it seems, probably, and it's likely that I derailed the conversation. But I'd like to believe I didn't misunderstand you.
almost all of it explained here: The only thing I could say is that Gerald was very likely forced to continue his work and turn Shadow into a weapon for them. (ever seen the opening of Iron Man?) as part of a conspiracy to take over everything - the ARK, eclipse cannon, Chaos Drives, Artificial Chaos, everything that was developed by him or anyone on the ARK- we actually get to read part of his Diary in Sonic X that talks about EXACTLY this. And yes it does seem like part of the idea was to leave it ambiguous whether or not Shadow was really the "ultimate life form" or just Project Shadow, a project by a crazy man. Either way it's a pretty cool scene to have him confronted with that information and determine it doesn't matter because he is who he is right now, or would be if that full context was realized. Sonic X was supervised heavily by Shun Nakamura (who wrote a lot of SA2) and the previously mentioned deleted scenes from SA2 were likely taken from the original script, which is why I'm fine with referencing it as a source, because it's the closest we get to a full adaptation of the original material or references stuff that was only in other supplementary material. And that's where my unpopular opinion that it's the best the story's been told comes from.
I think CD is amazing and better than 1 or 2 but not quite as good as S3K The level design is good unironically. An exploration focused Sonic with giant, open ended levels is exactly what I've always wanted. The original engine was glitchy and had messy collision, but the remaster removed that issue entirely. S Rank - S3K, CD A Rank - 1, 2, Mania (I don't like that the story is just a "greatest hits" and half the level concepts are recycled) Honorable Mention - Triple Trouble Remake
That’s a good list. I don’t know if I can definitively place CD in front of 2 because 2 is just so solid, but it’s up there for me. I’d probably go, 1st: 3K 2nd: Mania 3rd (tied): 2 and CD 4th: 1 I do still play Sonic 1 the most though, so it’s not like I dislike it. There is something about “Early Installment Weirdness” (excuse the TV Tropes reference) that I love for every piece of media.
Project Shadow was commissioned by the UF as a weapon from the start, I believe. "The Truth of 50 Years Ago" document from the JP guide states that the intent was "discovering the secret of immortality", and while that obviously meant "curing my grandchild's terminal illness" to Gerald, it almost certainly meant an unbeatable soldier to the government. It sounds like they were sketchy about letting Gerald work on it from the very beginning (after all, his intent was elsewhere), since he used both the Eclipse cannon and the Gizoid as leverage to get more time, and the assault on the ARK was just them putting their foot down. Eggman says they shut down the project because they feared it, but I think if they just feared the danger innate to Shadow, they would have destroyed it. It's more likely that the entire week-long raid was just a very sloppy attempt to move development earthbound. Also, I know the UF isn't literally the US, but that "Truth of 50 years ago" doc mentions that this was under the administration of the 13th president prior to the current one. So the US-analog from that era would be, what, Hoover? No idea why they picked that number, since nine or ten would get you to Truman or Eisenhower, and Shadow being an experimental weapon during wartime would make a lot more sense.
Him being the 13th is just a numeric symbol that he was a bad president or something. I think the same simple logic is behind "50 years ago" in that it's just a dramatically long time ago.
I think we're in more agreement than we realize, then, if you're saying that Sonic was about terrain interaction in the classics. Frankly I'm not sure what the root of the disagreement even is anymore. The post I initially replied to back in June said "The importance of rolling physics...is massively overstated in the fandom." We agree that Sonic in the classics is 'about' terrain interaction. The thing about the "rolling physics" is that they're applied to Sonic even when he's on foot. The way he interacts with the terrain, on foot, has more in common with the way rollercoasters, skateboards, snowboards, surfboards, skis, bicycles, etc. interact with smoothly flowing terrain than the way that you or I would, on foot. It's unclear to me what other kind of physics would have been applied to level design shaped like this. And I'm not saying that people thinking of the feeling of being on a rollercoaster are necessarily explicitly thinking about wheels. I'm saying that the way that wheels interact with terrain (flowing smoothly along it and gaining speed while going down hills) is one of the things that, under the hood, facilitates that feeling of exhilaration. And, thus, "rolling physics" are going to be involved in recreating that experience. Though honestly, since surfing down waves and snowboarding/skiing/sledding down slopes also resemble this stuff, perhaps my fellow Classic Sonic Elitists™ and I should start saying "slope physics" instead of "rolling physics", because what I'm describing at least applies to both rolling and sliding down hills.
Call me crazy, but I honestly find P-06 a bit less enjoyable than vanilla 06. I think a big part of what makes 06 enjoyable is how utterly broken it is. It's hilarious watching the game break and seeing insane shit like Silver launching Sonic into the fuckin' stratosphere or dying and careening into oblivion because you hit a speck of dust in the Crisis City mach speed section. Polish it up, fix the glitches, improve the performance, and reduce the load times, and you're left with a boring game with mediocre levels, badly designed mechanics, an ugly art style, a good soundtrack, and an atrocious story. I was talking with Josh a while ago and he made a great point that remaking 06 with the exact same story, level design, and mechanics is like if someone remade The Room with a AAA budget, director, cast, and crew, but with the same exact script. You'd just be removing the campy charm that makes it enjoyable and turning it into a polished but extremely bland experience. Don't get me wrong, P-06 is by far one of the most impressive Sonic fangames out there by far, and it is amazing how far it's gotten. But I think 06's issues are fundamental and go far beyond the bugs.
I'm sure they just went with the thought "The US has elections every 4 years" but didn't take two term presidents into account.
I have never played vanilla 06, but I think I might agree. I downloaded P06 out of curiosity, and didn't really make it far because it wasn't that exciting. Adding to what you said: It's like if you fixed all the grammar and cleaned up the art in Tails Gets Trolled. I adore Sonic 1 and have replayed it quite a bit recently. Playing Sonic 1 on the Genesis makes up a decent chunk of my earliest concrete memories. I never managed to actually beat the game legitimately until the 2000's or so when it came out on Xbox. I didn't manage to get all the Chaos Emeralds legitimately until a couple years ago. I'm still trying for the achievements for a deathless run and under 40 minutes run. Sonic 2, I don't have as much nostalgia for as most people. I didn't get that game until much later on after I'd already played 1 and 3K for hundreds of hours. I think it's a masterpiece like those games, but the level design is just downright sadistic in places and gets way more so towards the end.
This thread doesn't have nearly enough hot takes. Most these opinions are not unpopular at all. I'll start with a true hot take. Sonic 1 is the greatest Sonic game and is the best one by a long margin. The Room is actually good outsider art. This is a scorchingly hot take, but the Room is a great film it just does not subscribe to the conventions of film design. But what it sets out to do it does very well. Sonic 06 is just awful. The enjoyment is predominantly mockery.
I've flip-flopped a lot on P-06. I mean, it must be doing something right for how much of it I've played, but I have intensely mixed opinions on both the game as a standalone and as an update to Sonic 06. If I had to simplify it down to its most bare essentials it would probably be "you're really good at what you're trying to do but you should try something else". I think this is distinct from "06 is fundamentally unfixable and can never be truly enjoyed", which I've softened on a bit, but it makes it all the more frustrating because my process of playing through each game recently has pointed out dozens of tiny little changes that can change something that's infuriating into something that your eyes skip over, which is significant in a series where the best moments hit such a high mark. Like, take Silver. He undoubtedly works way better on Project 06 due to having more moves, higher speed, a spin jump and generally more-reliable mechanics. It's a fantastic update to what 06 tried. The problem is that 06 is an idiot who only tried dumb things. Silver's gameplay is based around stopping to pick up and throw objects and enemies, and that inherently kind of sucks for a Sonic game. What 06 should have tried from the start, if it wanted to make Silver a powerful psychic, is let him obliterate foes with overwhelming force, but have those enemies be faster and more dangerous to compensate. He can have psychic energy blasts, just be able to pick up everything by default, or even have psychic limbs like Raz in Psychonauts. Hell, if you want to still utilize the physics objects, maybe his powers automatically target objects and mashing the button just instantly flings whatever he's near at enemies. Anything would be better than the slow combat in a game already full of stop-and-go combat. The frustration comes at the fact that they spent a bunch of time making what's there now happen, and I doubt they're going to change it. The Elise stages are still easily the worst of Sonic's levels, but again, they spend a lot of time making them work. When I see how excited people get about Elise's default 06 model being made a little better without addressing the fact that the design itself is the problem, or that twitter thread where ChaosX said he was removing the kiss only for 06 stans to bully him into keeping it, it makes me wonder what the hell the point is. Every decision I see like this gives me a growing anxiety about the worst possible timeline: that 06 actually could be made quite enjoyable, but Project 06 aims for the gutter and doesn't make the most important changes. To be clear though: it absolutely is better than vanilla 06. I genuinely believe nobody who's made a respectable effort at playing vanilla 06 can judge it as "so bad it's good". It's a fun game to watch people make fun of, but that never comes from actually playing it. Even emulated, it's just annoying, boring and exhausting. 06 is not The Room, it's Kingdom of the Crystal Skull.
What makes Sonic 1 better than the usual picks? I already posted the (moderately warm) take that every level in Sonic 1 is unironically good, including Labyrinth and Marble Zone. But I don't know how I'd consider it better than the much longer, more polished, and more developed S3K.
