The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

It’s still funny how it’s mid game he changed his outfit though.

 

The characters were clearly meant to age between Sonic R and Sonic Adventure, but SEGA just haven’t been that invested to ensure that the logic remains consistent. For example, Sonic 4 is meant to take place directly after Sonic & Knuckles but features Modern Sonic. It’s likely this isn’t canon or will be retconned anyway, as they got other parts of the story wrong in the Sonic 4 plot description, but it’s really not worth arguing about. This is why SEGA are hiring / have hired a lore master.

Regarding character looks changing, that’s just art direction. Sonic and team frequently change palette and have different proportions, it’s like how Zelda changes every time too.

 

The Classic Sonic to Modern Sonic design changes aren't something to be taken literally. They're more like the shift from Batman: The Animated Series to The New Batman Adventures. Why did Mad Hatter get shorter? Because the artists redesigned him.

Agreed. I wouldn't even call it mistaken, they just didn't bother updating the sprite because you could only see his head and shoulders, so it wasn't a big deal. The Adventure-style Eggman you see outside of his mechs is the "correct" version.

 

If I remember correctly it reverts back and forth an handful of times, base lore on it it's kinda strange to be honest.
But Sonic's sudden "growth spurt" in the ending it's funnier, looking it on the same lens.

 

Not really. I'm just putting a small amount of effort in. Meanwhile, here you are nitpicking every tiny little thing amongst several games in an effort to try and dismiss something one of the games have decided and declaring me absurd.

I don't know why Robotnik's ears fell off between Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 and then regrew for Sonic Heroes, nor why the back of his goggles were absorbed by his skin, since you're determined to nitpick everything might as well bring that up. I can BS it if you're that obsessed with it though. It would otherwise simply be they're hidden by his collar and, out of universe, they were trying to save polygons.

Meanwhile, I'll continue with the idea Sonic has grown, since Metal Sonic's Sonic the Hedgehog CD profile suggests via Overall height: 765.4 mm, so 76.54cm, versus Modern Sonic's apparent 100cm. Since the sprites are the same height, it would be reasonable to assume him the same height as Sonic, but then again I probably shouldn't take this literally...

Meanwhile, Sonic has visited the Little Planet twice. We know the Little Planet appears for one month of the year, so at least 11 months have passed between Sonic the Hedgehog CD and Sonic the Hedgehog 4. So we know he's aged about a year before Sonic Adventure. Hmm...

Two years, if we consider Sonic Mania as actually happening and not an illusion of the Phantom Ruby.

I'll refer back to my prior post that you've either missed or ignored:

Specific details, such as the eye colours being visible, changed and aren't addressed.

Classic Sonic is referred to as younger, and less spikey, in the game itself. This makes sense if he's a younger Sonic. His eye colours are not brought up, so I consider them to be simply art-style that was retained. Same with every other thing: I don't think Robotnik was actually round during the Classic Timeframe, either that or he's wearing some sort of protective suit, it's just art-style, but he was wearing a cape where his modern self doesn't.

Basically, if it's actually addressed or otherwise something as simple as a change of clothes or quillstyle, I consider it something in-universe, if it's not such as eye colours or ears disappearing, I don't and consider it an art-style or graphical limitation thing.

You got a quote for that?

I mean, they have sprites for in his mech as well, and the scene where he's fleeing Sonic in Last Utopia Zone...

So they actually already have the needed sprite for most of the changes in the game. If anything, leaving the prior bosses unedited is eating up memory unnecessarily they could've put towards other things...

And again, the game was out almost an entire year after Sonic Adventure. Surely, out of the year, someone could've spent a day, if that, editing the needed sprites?

Only the once, with Last Utopia's boss. He's in the Modern outfit for the entirety of Last Utopia except when he's looking down and defeated, then back to the Modern look. Prior to Last Utopia, it's always Classic Robotnik.

 

As was pointed out previously, the Gigantic Angel Zone boss switches between Modern Eggman and Classic Eggman sprites: Classic Eggman for the standard animations used in multiple bosses, Modern Eggman for the unique animations. This shows us that the unique animations were drawn later. If there was supposed to be an in-story costume change then the Gigantic Angel boss wouldn't switch between two designs during the fight.

It is incredibly unlikely that SNK were concerned with the minutia of Sonic the Hedgehog continuity, in a game where the Sonic 2 Mecha Sonic returns and Knuckles is protecting the purple Chaos Emerald.

 

I also note that, but again, they actually have sprites for the same purpose. The only thing I could think is that, ironically, Modern Robotnik is sat in the Classic Sonic the Hedgehog (Mega Drive) Eggmobile while the classic design is otherwise in the Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive) Eggmobile, and the sprites are bound together.

But again, this is a lot more memory storage space being taken up on the cartridge for a needless detail, in a game released a near year after the redesigns were already in the public consciousness, on a portable console that was designed to hook up to the console said redesigns debuted on.

It's just a lot of weirdness for them to use the classic design at all.

 

What is the simplest explanation? That SNK were invested in deep Sonic lore, or that they didn't bother updating the generic in-mech sprites because it wasn't a big deal?

 

The latter, but the question remains on why they used the classic designs in the first place, which is the problem needing to be answered. There's no reason for them to do so at all. Even if we assume they just didn't update the sprites... then why did they go through and update Sonic and Tails' sprites to include the green and blue eyes, which would be a similar detail?

It's also not like they didn't have input from Sonic Team, Yuji Naka is listed as the supervisor. They had a direct line into Sonic Team, from the guy who was actively developing the world, and you're telling me they programmed and developed a majority of the game without anyone commenting "hey, you've got the wrong Robotnik design there. Might wanna change that before we get too far in."

 

Well, Pocket Adventure is a game that already rehashes a lot from the classic games, I wouldn’t be surprised if they originally made their sprites referencing those from the Mega Drive games and then later revised them to more accurately reflect the new designs. It may be the case that they simply ran out of time when it came to updating Eggman’s design, given that’d be a comparatively more intensive change than adding irises to Sonic, Tails and Knuckles. Granted, this is all unsubstantiated speculation, but I ultimately believe that Pocket Adventure seeming to bridge the gap between the classic and Adventure iconographies is nothing more than simple serendipity.

 

But they did have time to update all the graphical art, including that "Sonic in Neo Geo Pocket" unused intro screen?



Even with this, the Robotnik design looks a lot more like Classic Robotnik than Adventure, with his round body...

 

Sonic's earlier sprites were smaller, cuter, and (mostly) minus green eyes, akin to the classic version. I remember seeing prerelease images using the classic Eggman design in place of some of the modern sprites, but my memory is failing me and I can't relocate them...
Either way, it seems clear to me that there was simply a style shift at some point in development and not all assets got updated in time to match. Remnants of early designs happen a lot: Sonic doesn't just tempoarily become a bit younger when he sometimes uses Sonic 2 sprites in Sonic 3. It's just an oversight, but unlike the Pocket Adventure one it hasn't taken on a life of its own among the fans.

Making a game is difficult. It can be messy and disorganized. Not everything is made a clean order and not everything gets done. There's a whole bunch of reasons why some specific graphics can get changed but not others. I don't really know what point you're trying to make.

 

Hmm, still seems odd that they would use the Classic Designs at all when they had already performed the Adventure Redesign shift well in advance of even the Neo Geo Pocket's release, and as you note some of the Prototype sprites have the green eyes even then.

Do you have any clue on where the pre-release images with Classic Robotnik's design may have been?

EDIT:

The point I'm trying to make is that they had time to change all the graphics except the ones that they could have actually just shifted out and used a sprite seen later in the game. Especially since Yuji Naka was involved with the project, so I can't imagine someone who seems to have been a control freak and drama queen not enforcing the change over.

And this is including the idea that they would use the Classic designs in the first place, which is another why?

But honestly, Sonic Pocket Adventure is an enigma regarding development, considering the Development page on the Wiki is two quick paragraphs, one talking about the special stage sprite...

 

I don’t think any of those things are strange for most people. You seem to really obsess over minutiae and hyper analyze all of this stuff more than most people including the developers, but don’t seem to understand much about game development at least in regards to how long it takes to make assets. Making some sprites for a short intro sequence does not mean they have time to update more sprites. Yuji Naka producing the game does not mean he had time or cared strongly enough about updating the every sprite to fit the Adventure specifications, especially when he was presumably busy with PSO at the time.

 

Too much arguments about artistic choices of a game that is non canon.

 

I do have a tendency to hyperfixate, due to the autism, but at the same time I'm questioning why it happened in the first place. The problem I'm having is why the classic design was used at all, at a time when the Sonic Adventure designs were already long in use: their first reveal was August 1998, and they were being teased before then, if I recall correctly, and Sonic Pocket Adventure was announced to be in development in August 1999, with SEGA directly involved in the development.

It's all well and good everyone saying "Oh, the classic designs were in use before, then they just slapped the modern designs over the obvious stuff and called it a day", but there's no reason for them to have used the Classic designs at all, from the start. Does no one find that the least bit curious?

I mean, Sonic Pocket Adventure's development is an enigma, but isn't this the point of a Wiki, to research things like this and document them?

I did mention it was non-canon at the start, at this point it's simply a question of if it's a transitional title from Classic to Modern, to suggest SEGA always intended to have, at least, Robotnik change from his classic design to his modern one.

 

Fang: Hey Kyle and Ian! My question is a Prime related question, according to the writers it is canon somehow. Where do you think in the timeline does Prime take place? After Frontiers? Before?

Ian Flynn: I cannot answer because I know the answer and you haven't finished watching the show yet.

(1:57:00)

 

huh
Wasn't it "after everything"?


I asked him this:
50:03 - In S3K/Origins, why was the Master Emerald already hidden in Hidden Palace (before the events of the game) instead of being in the Altar?

Because my reasoning was that Knuckles hid the Master Emerald, from the outside Altar, in the Hidden Palace to protect it when the Death Egg crashed onto Angel Island.
Ian answered that the Master Emerald was actually in the Hidden Palace first, and later Knuckles moved it to the outside Altar because it had already been stolen twice when it was there (S3K and Mania), and he kinda gave up on the Hidden Palace.

 

Was it ever said that the master emerald wasn’t in Hidden Palace to begin with? Before Adventure that was just kind of where it was. In fact, I originally thought the emerald shrine was a redesign/retcon of Hidden Palace. Nowadays we know that the emerald was originally in the shrine and must have been moved to Hudden Palace at some point but I don’t think it was ever actually stated anywhere.

 

As far as I know, no.
I just assumed it got retconned in SA1 so that the Master Emerald would usually be in the outside Altar but was hidden in Hidden Palace due to the Death Egg's crash. It would make sense, I guess.